If not an altar server, what are other good services?

[snhs]

I think this is trying to be “too” cautious. I mean, we aren’t talking about having a nine year old throwing curve balls at full throttle. Admittedly, some choir directors try to get more out of the adult voices than they are capable of. If the choristers knew anything (and weren’t so proud as to think that they are better than they really are), they’d object. For typical songs, a child should be able to sing along quite competently, however. Especially if the congregation is expected to sing with the choir on most selections.

As to warm ups and techniques, just start with such at any choir rehearsal. It likely ought to be done, anyway. No, one can’t assure that ANY vocalist (youth or adult) will warm up properly on their own time. But using such as an excuse to not have children as part of a choir is a cheap excuse. Maybe the choir director doesn’t want to have to deal with kids and discipline. Or he doesn’t want to work. if this is the case, then he should outright get fired as he probably isn’t good for the choir or music program as a whole.

In isolation I’m sure they could, but the stop/starting in the Mass, often not having time/facilities for a proper warm up prior to Mass etc.

It would be incredibly difficult for a choir director to be aware of what each child was doing during the rehearsal, and whether they were producing the sound properly, had the correct support etc.

True, but for the most part you can leave it up to the adults themselves in a way you can’t do with children.

Yes maybe they don’t. Or maybe it’s a Diocesan child protection policy. But I don’t think we should be making negative assumptions about it when there are perfectly plausible and indeed well founded grounds for adopting such a policy for the child’s own good.

This goes back to what I said about it being slightly different for the U.S… You expect not just a choir but a music program and people to have been hired to take on that responsibility. In the Parish I go to all of the people who work with the choir are volunteers and that places certain limitations on what can be accomplished. Someone may know enough about music to sing with proper technique and conduct/lead well, but that doesn’t mean they are able to teach others to sing or have the confidence to try teaching children. They need to be allowed to work to their own limitations and if that means not taking anyone under a certain age/without prior training its surely better to allow them to do so than not have a choir at all.

Regarding Scooby’s point on boys’ choirs. Do you have any idea how much training those choristers have done before they even come close to joining a boys’ choir?

 

[nightwalker]

I know of some professional choirs that accept the boys with little or no prior training. Yes, they are dedicated to training them, but voice coaches are common enough here in the states that a child could train on their own to sing at a professional level.

 

[Larowyn]

I know of some professional choirs that accept the boys with little or no prior training. Yes, they are dedicated to training them, but voice coaches are common enough here in the states that a child could train on their own to sing at a professional level.

What part of the States are you from where that is true? Here if someone wanted to be a good musician they’d either need to have the talent to play by ear or have rich parents and get private lessons.

 

[chicago]

In isolation I’m sure they could, but the stop/starting in the Mass, often not having time/facilities for a proper warm up prior to Mass etc.

I’m sorry, but that’s just laziness.

It would be incredibly difficult for a choir director to be aware of what each child was doing during the rehearsal, and whether they were producing the sound properly, had the correct support etc.

A really good choir director can hear these sorts of things and will give a person “the look.”

An average choir director need not hear them, necessarily, as the music being done is probably not at (or at least ought not be at) the same sort of level.

True, but for the most part you can leave it up to the adults themselves in a way you can’t do with children.

I disagree. Most volunteer choirs consist not of quality vocalists who are dedicated to working their voices properly, but just nice people who like to sing (and hopefully can carry a tune.) Actually, a child may be more likely to dedicate herself to practice as she is sincerely interested and not just doing it as a nice little thing to participate in on Sunday.

Yes maybe they don’t. Or maybe it’s a Diocesan child protection policy.

You may be onto something about the policy. Though one must note that diocesan lawyers and accountants often do an awful lot to stifle the Holy Spirit.

But I don’t think we should be making negative assumptions about it when there are perfectly plausible and indeed well founded grounds for adopting such a policy for the child’s own good.

I disagree that it is for “the child’s own good.” It is for the convenience of the adults who don’t want to be bothered.

This goes back to what I said about it being slightly different for the U.S… You expect not just a choir but a music program and people to have been hired to take on that responsibility. In the Parish I go to all of the people who work with the choir are volunteers and that places certain limitations on what can be accomplished. Someone may know enough about music to sing with proper technique and conduct/lead well, but that doesn’t mean they are able to teach others to sing or have the confidence to try teaching children. They need to be allowed to work to their own limitations and if that means not taking anyone under a certain age/without prior training its surely better to allow them to do so than not have a choir at all.

Actually, I would say that practically describes a lot of the parishes in the U.S., too. But, again, if the musicians leading the programs aren’t that good to begin with, then they probably aren’t doing things which are so difficult that a kid can’t sing along. Again, what is to prevent the child from singing with the congregation, anyway, as would be expected of most selections the choir is leading?

Regarding Scooby’s point on boys’ choirs. Do you have any idea how much training those choristers have done before they even come close to joining a boys’ choir?

Yes, actually. We used to have someone named Msgr. Charles Meter (now passed on) here in Chicago who was a foremost expert in chant and boys choirs. You can take any young boy who can carry a tune respectably and teach him to sing in such a group just fine. Obviously, the best choirs will attract the best boys with the greatest potential, experience, and dedication. But, hey, you gotta start somewhere. If you waited until everyone was 18, then we’d never hear a boy soprano.

 

[Larowyn]

If you waited until everyone was 18, then we’d never hear a boy soprano.

Not true. He could be a Castrato Soprano.

 

[nightwalker]

What part of the States are you from where that is true? Here if someone wanted to be a good musician they’d either need to have the talent to play by ear or have rich parents and get private lessons.

An admittedly rich part, but I also know where to find people with training who wouldn’t mind a dedicated student on the side. (hint: not in Catholic churches) for a reasonable rate.

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

You may be onto something about the policy. Though one must note that diocesan lawyers and accountants often do an awful lot to stifle the Holy Spirit.

Ain’t that the truth!!!

What needs to be done are two things. I beleive that the talent we recieve is from God. I feel that we are called to share knowledge I look at knowledge as something to be shared. not charged for. But that is my opinion and many people do not share. So you want the organ to be the main instrument in the choir (I do). We need people to teach it to anyone interested. I want to learn the organ and I am. I see a need in the church for organists. the instrument is dying. My point is that a lot of choir directors can be a wet blanket on everything. I was in a choir and the director could not manage a two car funeral. I heard one lady sing so wonderfully that I was amazed, but she never had the opportunity to sing lead and was ignored. Jealiousy was the culprit. I asked an organist to show some secrets you know my being a musician I wanted help. Was told I am too old and will never be able to master it. Of course that is bull because God will allow it. We need to have someone higher in these decisions than a stuffy know it all choir director. Half of the problem in that people with little power let it get to their head. Just like the priesthood how many great priests were never to be ,because of mindless abuse of power. There is no reason why this child couldn’t sing in the choir. voices can be ruined so can a 50 year old man that discovered he is an awesome singer, He can do as much damage as a 9 year old. That is just a lame excuse. Scoob.

 

[chicago]

Not true. He could be a Castrato Soprano.

But there hasn’t been one of those since the early 1900s. That era is over. Besides, it is more charming when it is an actual child singing.

 

[snhs]

A really good choir director can hear these sorts of things and will give a person “the look.”

An average choir director need not hear them, necessarily, as the music being done is probably not at (or at least ought not be at) the same sort of level.

I disagree. Most volunteer choirs consist not of quality vocalists who are dedicated to working their voices properly, but just nice people who like to sing (and hopefully can carry a tune.) Actually, a child may be more likely to dedicate herself to practice as she is sincerely interested and not just doing it as a nice little thing to participate in on Sunday.

You may be onto something about the policy. Though one must note that diocesan lawyers and accountants often do an awful lot to stifle the Holy Spirit.

I disagree that it is for “the child’s own good.” It is for the convenience of the adults who don’t want to be bothered.

Actually, I would say that practically describes a lot of the parishes in the U.S., too. But, again, if the musicians leading the programs aren’t that good to begin with, then they probably aren’t doing things which are so difficult that a kid can’t sing along. Again, what is to prevent the child from singing with the congregation, anyway, as would be expected of most selections the choir is leading?

Yes, actually. We used to have someone named Msgr. Charles Meter (now passed on) here in Chicago who was a foremost expert in chant and boys choirs. You can take any young boy who can carry a tune respectably and teach him to sing in such a group just fine. Obviously, the best choirs will attract the best boys with the greatest potential, experience, and dedication. But, hey, you gotta start somewhere. If you waited until everyone was 18, then we’d never hear a boy soprano.

But now we’re up to a really good choir director, an average or even a good one probably wouldn’t be able to detect it, particularly if they had a conducting/instrumental background rather than choral expertise. Even on simpler tunes it can cause problems though, a good/average choir director would probably be aware if someone was going off pitch for the high notes and may give the choir an instruction to correct it which would mean something completely different to someone with vocal training as a child with relatively little/no singing experience. Once the director has got the right result he wouldn’t be aware of how the child was getting it, quite possibly by straining the voice etc.

And in some ways that creates still more problems. Children often aren’t as aware of their own limitations they may spend much too long practicing, sing regularly with no warm up or attempt singing other pieces in the hymn book which could be beyond their abilities/range.

Can’t disagree with you there.

Again that’s possible, but it could also be because they don’t consider themselves competent to do so or any number of reasons.

If someone’s singing with the congregation its a different kettle of fish, they don’t need to project, going off pitch/missing notes doesn’t matter, if parts of the piece go too high for them they can just muddle through etc none of which you could ordinarily get away with doing in a choir setting.

That may be true for someone who is an expert on boys choirs, but for someone with only a bit of singing and conducting under their belt? In addition that would be with at least some individual (name removed by moderator)ut and having a choir of boys/children all going from around the same starting point you can take the time to go over correct support, not doing X, Y or Z, doing A, B, C etc in a way you couldn’t with one or two children joining an adult choir.

Not true. He could be a Castrato Soprano.

I think child services may cause problems if we tried creating Castrati to take over from boy sopranos. If I remember correctly most Castrati were trained as singers while they were boys, after which someone decided if the voice was sufficiently pure to be worth retaining.

 

[chicago]

If someone’s singing with the congregation its a different kettle of fish, they don’t need to project, going off pitch/missing notes doesn’t matter, if parts of the piece go too high for them they can just muddle through etc none of which you could ordinarily get away with doing in a choir setting.

If a kid really is having THAT much in the way of problems, then SOMEBODY in the choir will notice. This ain’t entirely rocket science. You simply bend down and say something like, “Hey, don’t scream it.”

There is a simple solution to all of this. Have basic auditions for choir. Not to establish it as a world class ensemble or anything. Just to make sure that anyone who wants to join can carry a tune and sing reasonably well. There is no reason that need exclude children, who often have beautiful voices and can sing quite competently, if only offered the respect and assistance.

That may be true for someone who is an expert on boys choirs, but for someone with only a bit of singing and conducting under their belt? In addition that would be with at least some individual (name removed by moderator)ut and having a choir of boys/children all going from around the same starting point you can take the time to go over correct support, not doing X, Y or Z, doing A, B, C etc in a way you couldn’t with one or two children joining an adult choir.

Seriously, if the parish choir sucks so much that they can’t be trusted with these simple tasks, then maybe there ought not BE a choir. Just let the congregation sing everything by themselves. They actually might. And, right there, you’d have something more significant than small ****** choirs which are the center of their own attention.

I think child services may cause problems if we tried creating Castrati to take over from boy sopranos. If I remember correctly most Castrati were trained as singers while they were boys, after which someone decided if the voice was sufficiently pure to be worth retaining.

Thank heavens there are no more castrati. I would have been neutured!

(By the way, a good joke to mess with a guy who thinks he’s a pretty good singer is to ask him whether he can sing castrato. Usually the braggart doesn’t know what it means and may take the bait to try and prove his manhood, not realizing he’s actually getting cut off.)

 

[snhs]

If a kid really is having THAT much in the way of problems, then SOMEBODY in the choir will notice. This ain’t entirely rocket science. You simply bend down and say something like, “Hey, don’t scream it.”

There is a simple solution to all of this. Have basic auditions for choir. Not to establish it as a world class ensemble or anything. Just to make sure that anyone who wants to join can carry a tune and sing reasonably well. There is no reason that need exclude children, who often have beautiful voices and can sing quite competently, if only offered the respect and assistance.

Seriously, if the parish choir sucks so much that they can’t be trusted with these simple tasks, then maybe there ought not BE a choir. Just let the congregation sing everything by themselves. They actually might. And, right there, you’d have something more significant than small ****** choirs which are the center of their own attention.

Thank heavens there are no more castrati. I would have been neutured!

(By the way, a good joke to mess with a guy who thinks he’s a pretty good singer is to ask him whether he can sing castrato. Usually the braggart doesn’t know what it means and may take the bait to try and prove his manhood, not realizing he’s actually getting cut off.)

If they’re doing something obvious then other choir members might notice. But it is possible for them to be producing the right sound in the wrong way, which only someone who knows what to look for would spot, and even then they’d need to be looking for it.

Well in fairness to choirs teaching children to sing and indeed directing choirs is probably more difficult than most people would think.



One of my teachers tried a variation on that one of our flute players, we told them we had the last male castrati singing with us for the concert. Not only did she believe us, she also didn’t know what a castrati was.

 

[TotusTuusIesu]

Hey guys, how about we cut out the debating over choral stuff, seeing as it doesn’t really relate to the original thread of what other activities a young girl can partake in around the church?

 

[chicago]

If they’re doing something obvious then other choir members might notice. But it is possible for them to be producing the right sound in the wrong way, which only someone who knows what to look for would spot, and even then they’d need to be looking for it.

We can find a million excuses to keep kids out. Let’s find a few good reasons to bring them in.

Well in fairness to choirs teaching children to sing and indeed directing choirs is probably more difficult than most people would think.

Even a great choir director can’t be listening to every child in the choir individually to the point of recognizing all potential problems. Some risks just can’t be avoided. If you worry yourself to the point of not doing anything in order to avoid mistakes, then you’ll just stifle all action out of fear.

One of my teachers tried a variation on that one of our flute players, we told them we had the last male castrati singing with us for the concert. Not only did she believe us, she also didn’t know what a castrati was.

But how did the singer feel?

 

[Lepanto]

Please see:

missionnetwork.com/programs

Tons of stuff for girls.

 

[JKS]

Lepanto,
But Regnum Christi is getting banned and/or restricted in more dioceses all the time so Mission Network might not have much of a future, ya know?
How about she start with the Liturgy of the Hours, and daily Mass? The manual labor-type suggestions have a lot of merit too, since she would be doing a lot of scrubbing, sweeping, yard work, etc, if she has a vocation to the religious life.