if not evolution....

  • Thread starter Thread starter WINGS_DAY
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That it happened, and that Original Sin, at least in the Latin Church’s way of expressing it, passes down to each human. The Eastern Church’s do not treat this matter in precisely the same way theologically, I understand, but both ways of explanation are said to be Truth.
You mentioned Original Sin. What is truth of Original Sin? What is the true way the Fall happened, including the devil? What was the true result of Original Sin in regard to man’s relationship with God? What was the truth of man’s human nature? What was the true promise which followed Original Sin? What passes down to each human and what is the true way this happens?

These are only some of the questions about the reality of truth in the first three chapters of Genesis which can only be answered when the reality of Adam is recognized.

I really hope that you can see that something mystical and alagorical does not work when it comes to Divine Revelation and the Catholic Deposit of Faith.
 
You mentioned Original Sin. What is truth of Original Sin? What is the true way the Fall happened, including the devil? What was the true result of Original Sin in regard to man’s relationship with God? What was the truth of man’s human nature? What was the true promise which followed Original Sin? What passes down to each human and what is the true way this happens?

These are only some of the questions about the reality of truth in the first three chapters of Genesis which can only be answered when the reality of Adam is recognized.

I really hope that you can see that something mystical and alagorical does not work when it comes to Divine Revelation and the Catholic Deposit of Faith.
Too many questions. . . .

Not all questions need such specific answers. The Latin Church works on more of this method due to relying on Aristotle and Aquinas but the Eastern Churches don’t seem to feel the need to get so specific.

I am comfortable with mystery and mysticism.
 
Too many questions. . . .

Not all questions need such specific answers. The Latin Church works on more of this method due to relying on Aristotle and Aquinas but the Eastern Churches don’t seem to feel the need to get so specific.

I am comfortable with mystery and mysticism.
I did not mean to overwhelm you.:o

There are multiple questions because I wanted to give you a variety and because I am not sure just how you approach Catholic truths. Sometimes, a couple of questions will correspond with one doctrine. That is one way of going deeper into our faith.

When you are ready to find the Catholic teachings about humanity, start with paragraph 355 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. Talk about mystery! Our human nature is a mystery born of God’s love.

Link to Catechism scborromeo.org/ccc/para/355.htm
 
How about going back to your post 138 which is the one I was replying to?

Here is what you posted there.

“Your post suggests you know about all this evidence already, in which case, I don’t feel the need to go to the library and pour through scientific journals for hours to find what we both already know exists. Perhaps you could comment on what you think the assumptions are, though? And why you think it matters that we’re not bacteria.”

Now I see the confusion. My response started with another quote from you. Then I responded to your post 138. I talked about where scientific research can be found since you didn’t feel the need to go the library. As for the assumptions, I did address ones that I see as important. I will address more assumptions later, but these are enough to chew on at the moment.

Oops, I didn’t answer your last request “And why you think it matters that we’re not bacteria.” It matters because if I were bacteria, I wouldn’t be able to read your posts. 😃
No, I read it right. I saw the dual quotes. My response stands - you didn’t actually respond.
 
No. For obvious reasons about family stability.
I don’t see how A&E increasing the size of their family – and the number of cross-generational relationships that tie them to it – is in any way inherently destabilizing. Structures with wider bases are more stable than those with narrower ones.
No, incest between parent and children is intrinsically evil, between siblings it is not. As time went on that allowance was lifted.
If it’s not too much trouble, could you please furnish a citation for that distinction?

In any case, even if it were intrinsically evil, that would only address what Adam and Eve shouldn’t do vis incestuous relations with their offspring, not what they were capable of or actually did. It wouldn’t be the first time they sinned and it’s not like they were all that great at resisting temptation or anything.
 
I don’t see how A&E increasing the size of their family – and the number of cross-generational relationships that tie them to it – is in any way inherently destabilizing. Structures with wider bases are more stable than those with narrower ones.
I was commenting on a specific question regarding a specific situation. There was no indication of wider bases.

Cross-generational relationships can either be specific or general. This is one of the difficulties when attempting to estimate the size of archaic populations of any species in which random mating is the base for calculations.

The specific situation was your question about a parent and child. Adam and Eve are one couple because this establishes the family unit in which the two parents have the authority and responsibility to raise their young children. . If Eve married a son, technically that son would be a parent of Eve’s other children and the family would be split between which person claimed authority for which children.

In real life, fathers do not necessarily marry their childen, they can rape them.
 
The CCC states just what I wrote. Yes, an event certainly occurred, the fall occurred, but I contest it doesn’t need to be read totally literally. The book of Genesis is indeed true.

I believe this is an excellent link describing a more Catholic and less Protestant way of reading the Bible.
Not “totally literal” does not help this discussion. This area of theology has been plagued by such ambiguity for too long. I would ask you to specify what is literal (I am assuming literal=true) and what is figurative, but do not bother because Pope St. Pius X already took care of that in the PBC Replies on Genesis, which is a binding magisterial document.

And Catholics always took Genesis literally, which is why we believe in Original Sin as formulated by Trent. Protestantism, born of Rationalism, started casting doubt on a literal interpretation of the Bible, telling us that Genesis was not written by Moses (Documentary Hypoth.) and that the Eucharist is not literally the Body, Blood, Soul, and Diviinity of Christ.
 
I don’t see how A&E increasing the size of their family – and the number of cross-generational relationships that tie them to it – is in any way inherently destabilizing. Structures with wider bases are more stable than those with narrower ones.
I can understand with all the divorces in this century, there are many people who do not know what a stable family means. What can I say?
In any case, even if it were intrinsically evil, that would only address what Adam and Eve shouldn’t do vis incestuous relations with their offspring, not what they were capable of or actually did. It wouldn’t be the first time they sinned and it’s not like they were all that great at resisting temptation or anything.
You are right in that after the Fall, all kinds of sins against children and adults increased.

One of the bad things about “symbolism and allegory” is that people get hung up with a piece of organic fruit and totally miss the point of friendship between the Creator and the created person which was established with the first two human beings. In brief, Adam is dependent on his Creator and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom. The* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition* explains this clearly. While it is important to start with the beginning which is paragraph 355, one can learn about Adam’s life before he sinned by starting with paragraph 374. scborromeo.org/ccc/para/374.htm

One thing to remember is that sin does not destroy the purpose of the family unit with a mother and a father responsible for their children. Sins after the Fall do not take away the reality that only two humans were created as the parents of humanity.
 
Not “totally literal” does not help this discussion. This area of theology has been plagued by such ambiguity for too long. I would ask you to specify what is literal (I am assuming literal=true) and what is figurative, but do not bother because Pope St. Pius X already took care of that in the PBC Replies on Genesis, which is a binding magisterial document.

And Catholics always took Genesis literally, which is why we believe in Original Sin as formulated by Trent. Protestantism, born of Rationalism, started casting doubt on a literal interpretation of the Bible, telling us that Genesis was not written by Moses (Documentary Hypoth.) and that the Eucharist is not literally the Body, Blood, Soul, and Diviinity of Christ.
May I add that the Catholic Church has the guts to formally define Divine Revelation into basic Catholic doctrines under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. (refer to the Gospel of John, Chapter 14) The foundation for the Salvific Mission of Jesus Christ is found in the first three Chapters of Genesis. The explanation of who we are begins in the first three Chapters of Genesis. There is a lot more to the “garden” when one considers the reality of Adam and Eve, the same reality of our own human nature.

While I respect the discoveries and theories of science and do accept certain individual ones which deal with plants, non-human living organisms, and material anatomies including the human one, I trust the Catholic Church to provide the needed information about my spiritual soul.
 
I don’t see how A&E increasing the size of their family – and the number of cross-generational relationships that tie them to it – is in any way inherently destabilizing. Structures with wider bases are more stable than those with narrower ones.

If it’s not too much trouble, could you please furnish a citation for that distinction?

In any case, even if it were intrinsically evil, that would only address what Adam and Eve shouldn’t do vis incestuous relations with their offspring, not what they were capable of or actually did. It wouldn’t be the first time they sinned and it’s not like they were all that great at resisting temptation or anything.
Code:
                          [**Consanguinity (in Canon Law)**](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm)
Consanguinity is a diriment impediment of marriage as far as the fourth degree of kinship inclusive. The term consanguinity here means, within certain limitations defined by the law of nature, the positive law of God, or the supreme authority of State or Church, the blood-relationship (cognatio naturalis), or the natural bond between persons descended from the same stock. In view of the recognized descent of all men from one common stock, there is a general blood-relationship between all men; hence the limitation mentioned has reference to the nearest root or source of consanguinity. This bond or union of blood takes place in one case through the descent of one person from the other; this is called the direct line. In another case it takes place because the common blood is drawn from a common root, the same ancestor, from whom both persons descend, though they do not descend one from the other, and are therefore not in a direct but in a transverse or collateral line. By the law of nature, it is universally conceded, marriage is prohibited between parent and child, for the reverential relation between them is recognized as incompatible with the equality of relations engendered by the bond of marriage. The universal sentiment of peoples is likewise opposed to marriage between all persons related in any degree in the direct line, thus between grandparent and grandchild.
History of impediment

Because of the acknowledged derivation of the human race from the common progenitors, Adam and Eve, it is difficult to accept the opinion of some theologians that the marriage of brother and sister is against the law of nature; otherwise the propagation of the human race would have begun by violation of the natural law. It is readily understood that, considering the freedom of intercourse between such persons, some effort would soon be made (in the interest of the social welfare) to prevent early corruption within the close family circle by placing a bar to the hope of marriage. Hence among all peoples there has arisen a natural repugnance to the marriage of brother and sister. Some theologians suppose herein a positive Divine law, but it is not easy to point out any such early Divine enactment. Abraham married Sarah who was his sister by his father, though of a different mother (Genesis 11; cf. Genesis 20:12). Marriage was allowed at Athens with half-sisters by the same father (Plutarch, Cim., iv; Themist., xxxii), with half-sisters by the same mother at Sparta (Philo, De Special. Leg., tr. Yonge, III, 306), and with full-sisters in Egypt (Diodorus Siculus, I, 27) and Persia, as illustrated in the well-known instances of the Ptolemies in the former, and of Cambyses in the latter, country (Herodian, III, 31). For a good summary of non-Christian customs in this respect see Melody, “Marriage of Near Kin” in “Catholic University Bulletin” (Washington, Jan., 1903, pp. 40-60).

more…

**Question 54. The impediment of consanguinity

**and from the Jewish Virtual Library

INCEST

**In the Biblical Period

**Genesis questions and one that isn’t
Question from Jack on 5/6/2009:
 
I think science has proven the soul is alive and physical. The soul is the positive and negative energies a person produces…doing good, doing bad, etc. Scientifically it can be proven by X-Ray.Taken when the examined person has either preformed a good deed or a bad deed, the aura fluctuates. Science uses this method to prove of a physical soul. The aureola is the religious name for the living soul, and has been depicted for centuries in religious art.
:hey_bud:
Never seen my aura in my X-rays.
Soul id spiritual so by definition, unseens.
 
Do you have any links on what the possible effects of evolution might have on the human race for future generations? What if the laws of nature only exist to mold everything to a certain point?
No, because it is blind and unguided. However, here is one of interest.

MEN HAVEN’T CHANGED IN 270,000 YEARS

Now, this is what we are seeing over and over again.

Abrupt appearance, stasis, with limited variation. (we are seeing this in the fossil record very often now) Facilitated variation is showing us that the building blocks and capabilities were there in the beginning. The female passes on the information that continues to be what they started out as.

Next, look at convergent evolution. How many times did eyes evolve? etc… We keep seeing the same features “evolving” over and over again. What makes sense is drawing upon basic building blocks to make life’s variations, much like a lego block set. It is amazing how many different things can be built. Take this out to the nth degree with the 500 or so conserved genes.
 
Abrupt appearance, stasis, with limited variation. (we are seeing this in the fossil record very often now) Facilitated variation is showing us that the building blocks and capabilities were there in the beginning. The female passes on the information that continues to be what they started out as.
Reading now. If these building blocks were there “from the beginning” doesn’t that just indicate the presence of a common ancestor?

The development of tools has greatly altered the effects of evolution on us.
 
The new research also appears to rules out an opposing theory that modern humans simultaneously evolved in different regions of the Old World from an earlier human ancestor - Homo erectus - who migrated out of Africa perhaps 1 million years ago.
Homo erectus migrated out of Africa, but that doesn’t imply that all homo sapiens or modern humans evolved from these species. Another species or small group, much more like modern humans and neanderthals, evolved and then remigrated over those previously inhabited areas.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top