O
otjm
Guest
Well, for what is is worth, the last pope and this pope most definitely do not agree with you.
We don’t need a new Council to straighten out catechesis; that work is already underway and has been for some time.
- Status
We don’t need a new Council to straighten out catechesis; that work is already underway and has been for some time.
O
otjm
Guest
Congratulations on “swimming the Tiber” and welcome. I would imagine that was no easy task in a country that, as far as I know, is more identified with Lutheranism than Catholicism.
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ProVobis
Guest
Good enough.
S
sasha7
Guest
ProVobis,
Converts are called. There might be RCIA groups full of people who have other reasons (marriage, friends are Catholic so I want to be, etc.), but I don’t think certain things, like fasting 3 hours before, will run off converts. I do think a watered down Church will. I myself had nothing to compare it all too… no Pre-Vat to compare it to… but I do have older Catholic friends who miss Pre-Vat…but are still obedient…
Sasha7
Converts are called. There might be RCIA groups full of people who have other reasons (marriage, friends are Catholic so I want to be, etc.), but I don’t think certain things, like fasting 3 hours before, will run off converts. I do think a watered down Church will. I myself had nothing to compare it all too… no Pre-Vat to compare it to… but I do have older Catholic friends who miss Pre-Vat…but are still obedient…
Sasha7
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Anthony88
Guest
I think it my benefit all to actually see footage of before and after Vatican II, in its most dramatic form: youtube.com/watch?v=UZsOnkTk1RI
I personally am finding that much of the Catholic youth - who know their modern church history - are seeking the traditional forms of Catholic worship that existed prior to Vat II as to them, it is a no-brainer issue that there lies greater dignity in its reverence, silence, universality and solemnity. That of which because they have not lived long enough to be polluted by Church politics, false sentiments and repressed remorse, they are simply in pursuit of that which is holiest, in serving to give the greatest glory to God.
In a specific way, many young people want to worship God in a way that focuses only on giving Him glory - this cannot be done in a Church that is adamant on making it’s members feel more at home in God’s house.
It’s a shame that when we, the youth, want to give God our all - we are pressured to hold back and do all in common. Whether that means standing for communion when one’s heart knows to kneel in adoration in receiving Christ, or when one simply wants to give all affection and love to Christ upon the altar except they are compelled to be distracted by giving those around them a sign of peace, conscious of the fact that you may upset some people if you don’t. How indeed many in the Church have become enslaved by their desire to be loved, liked, or appreciated, as opposed to giving all to God.
Any way, like the previous commentor posted, what does it matter to speculate such trivial things as the world without Vat II. It must be considered nonetheless, that one of the greatest injuries done to the Church which was somewhat spring boarded from Vat II was the surge of great irreverence and pressing unbelief of the masses regarding the True Presence of Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - whether through their false belief or impious irreverence in the Church.
Watch these youtube videos: youtube.com/watch?v=UZsOnkTk1RI&feature=PlayList&p=20CB42BC5391BA98&index=0
they cry out for the great loss my generation, the youth, has suffered, as we have been robbed of our heritage and the great traditions of the Church by previous generations of lax Catholics - to the exception of the minutest few. We cannot even attend the Mass of the Saints without finding ourselves under the critical scrutiny of other Catholics, and even so when one finds themselves inside a Church where even pious and traditional seminaries have to ‘lay low’ so to speak in order to become ordained.
That’s not the worst of it, how those within the Church neglect Our Blessed Mother, and mistreat her approved messages and devotions as if they are merely optional to consider as if for the picking, however quote the writings of the Saints as if they’re are Canons themselves. My goodness, I could go on, however it be better if we spent our time praying Rosaries for Holy Mother the Church and our Holy Father.
Council or no council, it always comes down to considering the influence of lukewarm or half-hearted Catholics who abandon the Cross and who neglect to pray for the conversion of sinners, as Our Lady of Fatima would remind us well.
I’m glad that such issues don’t depend on the opinions of the living. As the truth is never democratic or popularly decided, and so we’ll be pleased to find that eventually we will hear the dead speak. That’ll be when we join them. There there will be no question what really happened to the Church the years preceding and following Vat II - and the dissensions inside and outside of the Church that were frenetically unleashed. You may want to hear from Dietrich von Hildebrand, now dead, about the Latin Mass: sanctamissa.org/en/spirituality/the-case-for-the-latin-mass.html
Leave all in the hands of God.
I personally am finding that much of the Catholic youth - who know their modern church history - are seeking the traditional forms of Catholic worship that existed prior to Vat II as to them, it is a no-brainer issue that there lies greater dignity in its reverence, silence, universality and solemnity. That of which because they have not lived long enough to be polluted by Church politics, false sentiments and repressed remorse, they are simply in pursuit of that which is holiest, in serving to give the greatest glory to God.
In a specific way, many young people want to worship God in a way that focuses only on giving Him glory - this cannot be done in a Church that is adamant on making it’s members feel more at home in God’s house.
It’s a shame that when we, the youth, want to give God our all - we are pressured to hold back and do all in common. Whether that means standing for communion when one’s heart knows to kneel in adoration in receiving Christ, or when one simply wants to give all affection and love to Christ upon the altar except they are compelled to be distracted by giving those around them a sign of peace, conscious of the fact that you may upset some people if you don’t. How indeed many in the Church have become enslaved by their desire to be loved, liked, or appreciated, as opposed to giving all to God.
Any way, like the previous commentor posted, what does it matter to speculate such trivial things as the world without Vat II. It must be considered nonetheless, that one of the greatest injuries done to the Church which was somewhat spring boarded from Vat II was the surge of great irreverence and pressing unbelief of the masses regarding the True Presence of Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - whether through their false belief or impious irreverence in the Church.
Watch these youtube videos: youtube.com/watch?v=UZsOnkTk1RI&feature=PlayList&p=20CB42BC5391BA98&index=0
they cry out for the great loss my generation, the youth, has suffered, as we have been robbed of our heritage and the great traditions of the Church by previous generations of lax Catholics - to the exception of the minutest few. We cannot even attend the Mass of the Saints without finding ourselves under the critical scrutiny of other Catholics, and even so when one finds themselves inside a Church where even pious and traditional seminaries have to ‘lay low’ so to speak in order to become ordained.
That’s not the worst of it, how those within the Church neglect Our Blessed Mother, and mistreat her approved messages and devotions as if they are merely optional to consider as if for the picking, however quote the writings of the Saints as if they’re are Canons themselves. My goodness, I could go on, however it be better if we spent our time praying Rosaries for Holy Mother the Church and our Holy Father.
Council or no council, it always comes down to considering the influence of lukewarm or half-hearted Catholics who abandon the Cross and who neglect to pray for the conversion of sinners, as Our Lady of Fatima would remind us well.
I’m glad that such issues don’t depend on the opinions of the living. As the truth is never democratic or popularly decided, and so we’ll be pleased to find that eventually we will hear the dead speak. That’ll be when we join them. There there will be no question what really happened to the Church the years preceding and following Vat II - and the dissensions inside and outside of the Church that were frenetically unleashed. You may want to hear from Dietrich von Hildebrand, now dead, about the Latin Mass: sanctamissa.org/en/spirituality/the-case-for-the-latin-mass.html
Leave all in the hands of God.
L
Lormar
Guest
Anthony88
Some of us tried to save them for you but we didn’t have much of a chance. The modernists came in and took control of everything in no time flat, and their methods were, at times, ruthless. But it is HIS Church and He is in control. We must see all that has happened as either His direct or permissive Will. I do not like what has happened to the Church in the past forty-five years, but I am grateful that it happened so that all the rot will float to the top and be gotten rid of. Also, if we survive a few more centuries, I am confident that the Mystical Body of Christ will look back at all of this and take care that nothing like it happens again.
Some of us tried to save them for you but we didn’t have much of a chance. The modernists came in and took control of everything in no time flat, and their methods were, at times, ruthless. But it is HIS Church and He is in control. We must see all that has happened as either His direct or permissive Will. I do not like what has happened to the Church in the past forty-five years, but I am grateful that it happened so that all the rot will float to the top and be gotten rid of. Also, if we survive a few more centuries, I am confident that the Mystical Body of Christ will look back at all of this and take care that nothing like it happens again.
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ProVobis
Guest
And my point was that there doesn’t seem much to much to be obedient to.
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cthulhubryan
Guest
Bobbi, Never look backwards and do not live in the past
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Lycorth
Guest
So long as the work gets done. The Church needs a real renewal and needs to fix what has been broken.
Great post!
In my younger days, coming to truly take my Faith seriously, I was always put off by attempts to cater to me as a young man. Youth Masses, contemporary rock performances, exchanging traditional art and rubrics for casual modern depictions and easygoing (and fast) Masses - anything like that always put me off. I was not some idiot who had to be catered to in a special way, and I think most young people feel the same. Dumbing-down the Mass or the Faith in general to appeal to young people just tells them that they can’t handle the authentic, traditional presentation. No wonder young people are more excited about traditionalist groups while Youth Masses and whatnot see fewer and fewer young people coming to them.
Heck, it’s part of why young people are so interested in certain forms of Paganism. Paganism for the most part today purports to be traditional religion, purports to have the strength and authority of age and timeless wisdom. Most pagan groups do not dumb down their religions for young people - they strive to present the most traditionalist position possible. That is a powerful thing, and the Church has a truly rich tradition of her own - yet benighted churchmen and laity still refuse to tap into it!
Most pagan religions cannot even prove half of what they claim about the traditional roots of their religions. The Catholic Church on the other hand can do so mightily. Tradition is what we need, not modern novelties or condescending dribble.
The modernist fallout of Vatican II may have harmed the Faith overall, but the extremes of the modernists are only shoring up and encouraging traditionalist fervor in others. I pray God makes these seeds grow!
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edwest2
Guest
Still complaining about Vatican II? Has anyone here read the documents?
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
Does anyone know why priests and nuns were quitting? Here’s a TIME magazine cover story from 1970.
time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19700223,00.html
In 1968, Pope Paul VI had Humanae Vitae published warning Catholics of the temptations of artificial birth control, including The Pill.
Can anyone explain the connection between Vatican II and the following:
Making LSD, marijuana, hashish, speed and other illegal drugs cool?
Adult bookstores selling graphic porn legally?
The wedge created between men and women by the National Organization for Women?
Legalizing topless go-go bars?
Legalizing abortion?
The creation of No-Fault Divorce?
Obedience to the Magisterium of the Church is important. What did Jesus say? “He who hears you hears me.”
Peace,
Ed
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
Does anyone know why priests and nuns were quitting? Here’s a TIME magazine cover story from 1970.
time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19700223,00.html
In 1968, Pope Paul VI had Humanae Vitae published warning Catholics of the temptations of artificial birth control, including The Pill.
Can anyone explain the connection between Vatican II and the following:
Making LSD, marijuana, hashish, speed and other illegal drugs cool?
Adult bookstores selling graphic porn legally?
The wedge created between men and women by the National Organization for Women?
Legalizing topless go-go bars?
Legalizing abortion?
The creation of No-Fault Divorce?
Obedience to the Magisterium of the Church is important. What did Jesus say? “He who hears you hears me.”
Peace,
Ed
R
Ralph4454
Guest
A
Anthony88
Guest
Hi Ed,
In another thread I’ve answered the gist of this question, well I hope, as quoted here:
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Anthony88
Guest
Also, it must be further stressed, that the weight or inflation of the decadence and evils of the world tie inextricably with the Holiness of Holy Mother the Church, in her members, liturgy, prayers, sacrifices, masses and etc. This is somewhat made clear when Our Lady of Fatima said in reference to the poor souls that they were lost to hell because there was no one to pray for them. Our Lady focused not on the ailment as being so much the problem but the lack of remedy. Not the state of the anathema, so to speak, but the state of the panacea.
And so the connection is, with the relaxation, disintegration, dissensions, deformation, abolitions, confusions, chaos and calamities that came from the consequences of the defects of some in the Council and the neglects and omissions from the Council (yet not to the exclusion of other events and proceedings that followed), the Council and proceedings afterwards became “hi-jackable”, a possible and eventual stepping stone to the dismantling of the traditions, culture and pious practice of worship of the Catholic faithful. This culminated in the many bad fruit of that particular “spring time”. This bad fruit, within the Church, this falling and diminishing of grace within the Church would directly influence the growth and surge of immorality and sin outside the Church. For the Light that shone bright had become dimmed, and the darkness encroached further in. This is why St. Paul spoke of the battle being that between the evil spirits and the powers of darkness. The evils and sinfulness of the modern world, including those of the sexual, social and cultural revolutions are not the fruit of political works but of spiritual works, as all works are fundamentally spiritually motivated and grounded - towards the glory of God or the diabolical devices of the Devil. To that which is good or to that which is not. I hope this has answered your question.
Also, on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it should naturally be noted that because there is less attendance to Holy Mass, less observance of True Presence in the Eucharist, less potential for reverence (refer to 20th Century Doctor of the Church - Dietrich von Hildebrand - sanctamissa.org/en/spirituality/the-case-for-the-latin-mass.html) and thus solemnity from the simplification, modernisation and minimalism upon the Liturgy itself, it is no wonder there is a lesser potential to gain the greatest amount of graces for the elimination of sin in the world.
An example of this is the concept of “Con-celebration” (which is good from Holy Mother the Church, but used as an example here) has priests at times celebrate masses together, therefore offering one single mass in those single instances. Prior to the changes, each priest except in the cases of Solemn High Mass and the like, said their own Masses, simultaneously at times at side alters. Thereby, statistically having a situation where priests where individually offering more masses. However today, it is less as con-celebration and the removal of side altars reduce the number of multiple masses. Therefore as two minus one equals one, so we can actually be conscious of decline in possible graces, in response to those who may find this idea incompatible.
And so the connection is, with the relaxation, disintegration, dissensions, deformation, abolitions, confusions, chaos and calamities that came from the consequences of the defects of some in the Council and the neglects and omissions from the Council (yet not to the exclusion of other events and proceedings that followed), the Council and proceedings afterwards became “hi-jackable”, a possible and eventual stepping stone to the dismantling of the traditions, culture and pious practice of worship of the Catholic faithful. This culminated in the many bad fruit of that particular “spring time”. This bad fruit, within the Church, this falling and diminishing of grace within the Church would directly influence the growth and surge of immorality and sin outside the Church. For the Light that shone bright had become dimmed, and the darkness encroached further in. This is why St. Paul spoke of the battle being that between the evil spirits and the powers of darkness. The evils and sinfulness of the modern world, including those of the sexual, social and cultural revolutions are not the fruit of political works but of spiritual works, as all works are fundamentally spiritually motivated and grounded - towards the glory of God or the diabolical devices of the Devil. To that which is good or to that which is not. I hope this has answered your question.
Also, on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it should naturally be noted that because there is less attendance to Holy Mass, less observance of True Presence in the Eucharist, less potential for reverence (refer to 20th Century Doctor of the Church - Dietrich von Hildebrand - sanctamissa.org/en/spirituality/the-case-for-the-latin-mass.html) and thus solemnity from the simplification, modernisation and minimalism upon the Liturgy itself, it is no wonder there is a lesser potential to gain the greatest amount of graces for the elimination of sin in the world.
An example of this is the concept of “Con-celebration” (which is good from Holy Mother the Church, but used as an example here) has priests at times celebrate masses together, therefore offering one single mass in those single instances. Prior to the changes, each priest except in the cases of Solemn High Mass and the like, said their own Masses, simultaneously at times at side alters. Thereby, statistically having a situation where priests where individually offering more masses. However today, it is less as con-celebration and the removal of side altars reduce the number of multiple masses. Therefore as two minus one equals one, so we can actually be conscious of decline in possible graces, in response to those who may find this idea incompatible.
K
KC91
Guest
As said before, indirectly -
Spirit of Vatican II =
Loss of faith among the faithful =
Less political influence of Cardinals/Bishops =
Politicians are no longer anti-Abortion to gain or avoid the opposition of the Catholic Vote
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whatischarity
Guest
Although Vatican II did result in the destruction of the iron curtain and the collapse of the Soviet Union as the Church gained more political clout in Eastern Europe.
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edwest2
Guest
Thank you Anthony88.
Before the 1970s, we had Playboy which featured nudity. In the 1970s, graphic images of prostitutes.
Who legalized it? Lawyers and judges. Who benefited? Organized crime.
In the late 1960s, dope was cool. Who benefited? Organized crime.
Roe v Wade in 1973. The Supreme Court gave women the OK to kill their own babies.
Who created and legalized No-Fault Divorce in the 1980s? Who benefited? Lawyers.
The break up of the family was assisted by the shrill voice of the National Organization for Women.
There’s no money in stability. In the 1960s, neighbors helped neighbors and we didn’t ask for money. Did the Church create the Me Generation? Yuppies?
Yes, there were troublemakers in the Church. The smoke of satan had gotten in. That’s why it’s so important to remember that Pope Paul VI warned Catholics about artificial contraception in 1968 with Humanae Vitae. But no, we were too distracted by people who were lying to us.
Peace,
Ed
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ProVobis
Guest
But Pope Paul VI might have brought about the smoke by himself too. Before the HV was issued, he wrote Progressio Populorum and had gathered together many moral theologians whose thinking was to allow ABC. During this long period, many priests had already advised their congregations to use their consciences as to whether they could use ABC. To some ABC was seen as the lessor of two evils of contraception and abortion.
HV came as a shock (and disappointment) to many; so much so the Pope’s popularity dropped and there was heavy denial and rejection of H.V. HV was, of course, correct, but that was closing the barn door after all the horses escaped.
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edwest2
Guest
I disagree. First of all, outside radicals kept telling Catholics we were sexually repressed. Normal family life was out. The makers of Birth Control Pills had to sell them to make money. It was the radicals, the Hippies and the anarchists who staged the Sexual Revolution and the media was about to mutate from a guest in our home to a gradually perverted state. Abortion was not legal in 1968.
Populorum Progressio? Did you read it? It was about global help for the poor without taking advantage of them in the process.
A priest posted on this forum some months ago about a meeting he attended around 1968 where he was asked to sign a letter denouncing Humanae Vitae. He refused.
What happened was the law was taken over by people who wanted porn, strip clubs and legal abortions. The Church was never for those things.
I heard a priest on Catholic Radio state that Seminaries in the 1970s were not giving those studying for the priesthood the full teaching about ABC. Yes, they were told to tell people that it was up to their own conscience to make the choice. That is changing now.
Peace,
Ed
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otjm
Guest
Rambling does not help, so I hope this doesn’t all go down the proverbial rabbit hole. Last I recall, Fatima occured well before Vatican 2, and occured before the peaking of attendance at Mass (which was already falling off before Vatican 2 was even proposed). As to poor souls lost in hell, to begin with, people end up in hell because they reject God; granted that someone may be turned from rejecting Goad and repent because of an outpouring of graces due to someone else’s prayers, the peaking of prayers came before Vatican 2 and after Fatima, so this basically is a non sequitur.
I am not sure I can make heads or tails of this; but all the priests and nuns who rebelled, and did so as fast as they did after Vatican 2, were all in the priesthood or convents long before any Vatican 2 was proposed. When John 23rd proposed a Vatican 2, it came for the most part “out of nowhere” as no one was proposing a council, and no one was proposing a council that would call for changes in the way the Church did things. So your comments do not explain why a clergy and a professed religious group would be anticipating (as all these liberals were, if I understand your proposal) something no one had thought about or proposed.
This is so far over the top as to leave me with nothing but amazement - the Mass is not magic, and I sincerely doubt God is sitting in heaven counting how many Masses are said. Further, concelebration is a rare event, and your reference to Solemn High Masses belies any understanding of them.
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otjm
Guest
He brought together a group, and then later expanded the group.
Part of the initial problem was that the Church had never in 2000 years moved as fast about such a major question as the Pill caused. Many people at the timebelieved that the Pill only regulated the woman’s cycle (it helps to remember that science and medicine have progressed tremendously in terms of understanding since the mid 1960’s) and there were legitimate questions on the table.
And theologians were split before P 6th called the commission. There was no single answer given with any authority; and as such it was a question upon which confessors did not have an absolute answer.
It is easy to go back with the knowlege we have today and say they were all wrong; it is entirely a different matter to say that they should have known, or did know, what we know today.
- Status