If not the Real Presence, why Bleeding Hosts?

[deb1]

David Brent:

Why would you assume that I would think Satan caused that to happen just because I am “Protestant.” That’s just silly.

I?

I think that sadly, certain Protestants have been so negative toward Catholics that some of us accidentally develop a wariness. I have to constantly remind myself that the majority of non Catholics don’t disbelieve that Catholics are Christian or feel a need to criticize our mass. After all, I have known some very godly Protestants in my time. It is a distressing fact that the loudest though and most noticable Prots. are the ones that have some odd beliefs about the Catholic church or even feel the need to ‘save’ us from hell. That is why an assumption was made about you that apparently wasn’t true.

 

[David_Brent]

deb1:

I think that sadly, certain Protestants have been so negative toward Catholics that some of us accidentally develop a wariness. I have to constantly remind myself that the majority of non Catholics don’t disbelieve that Catholics are Christian or feel a need to criticize our mass. After all, I have known some very godly Protestants in my time. It is a distressing fact that the loudest though and most noticable Prots. are the ones that have some odd beliefs about the Catholic church or even feel the need to ‘save’ us from hell. That is why an assumption was made about you that apparently wasn’t true.

I understand. The older I get, the more I think that the denominational lines we humans created may do more to disrupt or impede the expansion of the Christian faith than anything Satan could throw at us.

 

[ddingler]

David Brent:

I understand. The older I get, the more I think that the denominational lines we humans created may do more to disrupt or impede the expansion of the Christian faith than anything Satan could throw at us.

I think Satan himself is behind all of this division. His greatest triumph really.

 

[Shibboleth]

We must keep in mind that Satan is not the antithesis of God. He is not omnipotent and he has limited powers. Sometimes we want to ascribe all bad things to Satan in certain fallacious ways – he is not omnipresent.

A good way to keep Satan in the proper respect is to note that he is the antithesis of The Seraphim Angel Michael and his powers are probably the equivalency there of…

 

[turboEDvo]

David Brent:

My point is that it doesn’t matter whether the communion host and the wine transubstantiate. What they represent is enough to get my attention and focus my reverance on Christ, and what He so graciously did for me.

Well, I have to disagree, it really does matter. Transubstantiation continues the sacrifice that Jesus made for us, so that we can continue to receive Him as the disciples did. He gives Himself to us in this fashion ever Mass. I must say that it would seem rather unfair that Jesus’ first disciples received Him, and I don’t get to, a helpless victim of my birthdate. This extends Jesus to everyone, even if they didn’t have the luxury of following Him 2000 years ago.

I don’t genuflect or kneel in front of unblessed hosts, even though they do remind me of God’s sacrifice (only by extension to what they become). I don’t show any special reverence to them because they are just like any other piece of bread. However, the second they become Jesus, then they deserve and receive my reverence as objects of salvation.

I’m not saying that being reverent towards objects that represent Jesus is bad. I’m simply saying that while my Rosary and my Scapular remind me of God and Jesus, they aren’t the real thing.

Eamon

 

[turboEDvo]

deb1:

I think that sadly, certain Protestants have been so negative toward Catholics that some of us accidentally develop a wariness. I have to constantly remind myself that the majority of non Catholics don’t disbelieve that Catholics are Christian or feel a need to criticize our mass. After all, I have known some very godly Protestants in my time. It is a distressing fact that the loudest though and most noticable Prots. are the ones that have some odd beliefs about the Catholic church or even feel the need to ‘save’ us from hell. That is why an assumption was made about you that apparently wasn’t true.

So true. My best friend at my high school is Episcopalian, and he is very reverent.

Eamon

 

[RichSpidizzy]

turboEDvo:

Well, I have to disagree, it really does matter. Transubstantiation continues the sacrifice that Jesus made for us, so that we can continue to receive Him as the disciples did. He gives Himself to us in this fashion ever Mass. I must say that it would seem rather unfair that Jesus’ first disciples received Him, and I don’t get to, a helpless victim of my birthdate. This extends Jesus to everyone, even if they didn’t have the luxury of following Him 2000 years ago.

I don’t genuflect or kneel in front of unblessed hosts, even though they do remind me of God’s sacrifice (only by extension to what they become). I don’t show any special reverence to them because they are just like any other piece of bread. However, the second they become Jesus, then they deserve and receive my reverence as objects of salvation.

I’m not saying that being reverent towards objects that represent Jesus is bad. I’m simply saying that while my Rosary and my Scapular remind me of God and Jesus, they aren’t the real thing.

Eamon

Eamon, I want to be like you when I grow up… And I’m 7 years older than you!

That was eloquently worded, and I thought you should be commended on you knowledge of the Faith. You don’t see that much amongst people your age. Did you have good religious instructon growing up, or are you more self taught?

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

SDA2RC:

In my former life as an Adventist, I often heard that these miracles were parts of the “signs and wonders” produced by Satan in order to deceive people. It would lead people into the RCC, and thus away from the truth.



Brandon

hahaha. i’ve got a calvinist telling me this same thing. but they’re right, you know…i mean, if i was satan, my main goal would be to do things to reaffirm and strengthen the faith of all these people in my greatest adversary. great plan.

 

[VociMike]

David Brent:

Is it possible that the bread and wine are just symbols?

Only if there was no teaching Church for 1500 years. To believe “symbols only” is to believe Satan triumphed over Christ’s Church, the Church He said He would be with always.

 

[David_Brent]

turboEDvo:

Well, I have to disagree, it really does matter. Transubstantiation continues the sacrifice that Jesus made for us, so that we can continue to receive Him as the disciples did. He gives Himself to us in this fashion ever Mass. I must say that it would seem rather unfair that Jesus’ first disciples received Him, and I don’t get to, a helpless victim of my birthdate. This extends Jesus to everyone, even if they didn’t have the luxury of following Him 2000 years ago.

I don’t genuflect or kneel in front of unblessed hosts, even though they do remind me of God’s sacrifice (only by extension to what they become). I don’t show any special reverence to them because they are just like any other piece of bread. However, the second they become Jesus, then they deserve and receive my reverence as objects of salvation.

I simply don’t agree on the issue of transubstantiation. I also don’t understand what you mean when you say that the disciples “received Him.” They lived with Him. They shared meals together. They healed people. They ministered together. They shared the Last Supper together. They partook of bread and wine just as the Catholic church does every mass and other denominations do at communion services. I guess you mean that at the Last Supper, that bread a wine transubstantiated then too – even though Christ was sitting right there. It was symbolism. Nothing more. Just as He’d done with His parables, Jesus was explaining about Himself and the sacrifice He was about to make of Himself by way of the example of bread and wine. Again there is no reason to withhold reverance just because we missed out on the chance to witness Jesus when He walked the earth. I am not advocating bowing or genuflecting to a symbol. And there is nothing “unfair” about anything the Lord does. He has not abandoned us just because He is not here incarnate. He has sent the Holy Spirit to walk with us; to tug at our souls; to be that still small voice that pushes or pulls us closer to Him; to testify to us about who Christ is and what He has done for us.

Jesus was well aware that billions of people would not get to share the disciples’ experiences with Him. And He sent the Holy Spirit to bridge that gap in a sense. Who are we to say that anything God chooses to do is “unfair?” Unfair to whom?

Part 1 of 2 (I hit the 5000-character limit!)

 

[David_Brent]

turboEDvo:

Well, I have to disagree, it really does matter. Transubstantiation continues the sacrifice that Jesus made for us, so that we can continue to receive Him as the disciples did. He gives Himself to us in this fashion ever Mass. I must say that it would seem rather unfair that Jesus’ first disciples received Him, and I don’t get to, a helpless victim of my birthdate. This extends Jesus to everyone, even if they didn’t have the luxury of following Him 2000 years ago.

I don’t genuflect or kneel in front of unblessed hosts, even though they do remind me of God’s sacrifice (only by extension to what they become). I don’t show any special reverence to them because they are just like any other piece of bread. However, the second they become Jesus, then they deserve and receive my reverence as objects of salvation.

I’m not saying that being reverent towards objects that represent Jesus is bad. I’m simply saying that while my Rosary and my Scapular remind me of God and Jesus, they aren’t the real thing.

Eamon

Part 2 of 3 (dang 5000-character limit!)

This is what Jesus said in John 14:15-31 (New Living Translation)about sending the Holy Spirit:

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15"If you love me, obey my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, who will never leave you. 17He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world at large cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you do, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. 18No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19In just a little while the world will not see me again, but you will. For I will live again, and you will, too. 20When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Those who obey my commandments are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them, and I will love them. And I will reveal myself to each one of them."

22Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, “Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?”

23Jesus replied, "All those who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and live with them. 24Anyone who doesn’t love me will not do what I say. And remember, my words are not my own. This message is from the Father who sent me. 25I am telling you these things now while I am still with you. 26But when the Father sends the Counselor as my representative—and by the Counselor I mean the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I myself have told you.

27"I am leaving you with a gift—peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give isn’t like the peace the world gives. So don’t be troubled or afraid. 28Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really love me, you will be very happy for me, because now I can go to the Father, who is greater than I am. 29I have told you these things before they happen so that you will believe when they do happen.

30"I don’t have much more time to talk to you, because the prince of this world approaches. He has no power over me, 31but I will do what the Father requires of me, so that the world will know that I love the Father. Come, let’s be going.

(Please keep reading!)

 

[David_Brent]

turboEDvo:

Well, I have to disagree, it really does matter. Transubstantiation continues the sacrifice that Jesus made for us, so that we can continue to receive Him as the disciples did. He gives Himself to us in this fashion ever Mass. I must say that it would seem rather unfair that Jesus’ first disciples received Him, and I don’t get to, a helpless victim of my birthdate. This extends Jesus to everyone, even if they didn’t have the luxury of following Him 2000 years ago.

I don’t genuflect or kneel in front of unblessed hosts, even though they do remind me of God’s sacrifice (only by extension to what they become). I don’t show any special reverence to them because they are just like any other piece of bread. However, the second they become Jesus, then they deserve and receive my reverence as objects of salvation.

I’m not saying that being reverent towards objects that represent Jesus is bad. I’m simply saying that while my Rosary and my Scapular remind me of God and Jesus, they aren’t the real thing.

Eamon

(Part 3 of 3)

Jesus also had this to say in John 16:5-15:

The Work of the Holy Spirit

5"But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and none of you has asked me where I am going. 6Instead, you are very sad. 7But it is actually best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Counselor won’t come. If I do go away, he will come because I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convince the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. 9The world’s sin is unbelief in me. 10Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. 11Judgment will come because the prince of this world has already been judged.

12"Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. 15All that the Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me.

I think it is clear from this that Christ sent the Holy Spirit for those of us who would not get the chance to walk with Him when He was on this earth in physical form.

To me, it sounds like transubstantiation matters to you because you think that you will miss out on receiving Christ without that. But rest assured that Christ provided the Holy Spirit for that very purpose. As He said: “But when the Father sends the Counselor as my representative—and by the Counselor I mean the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I myself have told you.”

When you first acknowledged your belief in Christ, the Holy Spirit was there and will continue to be there for you to show you what Christ has for you. What happens with the wafer and wine has nothing to do with that! You have all of Christ right now!

Thanks for your patience with my long-windedness!

 

[VociMike]

David Brent:

IMy point is that it doesn’t matter whether the communion host and the wine transubstantiate. What they represent is enough to get my attention and focus my reverance on Christ, and what He so graciously did for me.

But it is not for you or I to decide what is “enough” from Christ. When Christ offers Himself to us we are not within our rights to insist that what is offered is not really Christ after all but only a pseudo-meal to remind ourselves of Him. To insist that the Eucharist is not really Christ but that it is still “enough” is akin to insisting that e.g. Christ is not really God, but that He is still “enough”.

 

[David_Brent]

VociMike:

Only if there was no teaching Church for 1500 years. To believe “symbols only” is to believe Satan triumphed over Christ’s Church, the Church He said He would be with always.

I don’t think you understand my point. I am not suggesting that Satan triumphed in any way. Satan lost once and for all.

Christ Himself said, “do this in remembrance of me.” In remembrance. Remember the sacrifice that I am about to give for you and for everyone. I am about to sacrifice my body for you. I am about to bleed for you. I am sacrificing my body for you much in the same way that I break this bread for your sustenance. My sacrifice is for your sustenance – your eternal sustenance. I am shedding my blood for you – for your salvation. Remember that by drinking this wine which represents my blood shed for you.

I don’t care if the Church is with me always. I care if He is with me always. He is with me always. I know that because (1) He said so; and (2) I have experienced it through His Holy Spirit that He sent to walk along side me as I journey through this life until I die and see Him in Heaven.

 

[chadwilliams]

David Brent:

Is it possible that the bread and wine are just symbols?

No.

At the Last Supper Jesus said, “This IS my body…this IS my blood”

not

This is a SYMBOL of my body…this is a SYMBOL of my blood."

 

[chadwilliams]

David Brent:

My point is that it doesn’t matter whether the communion host and the wine transubstantiate. What they represent is enough to get my attention and focus my reverance on Christ, and what He so graciously did for me.

Christ says otherwise. Read all of John Chapter 6. Play close attention to this part:

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." 52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Many people didn’t understand and left. His Apostles stayed, and at the Last Supper, when Christ said (holding the bread) “This is my body…” they realized that “oh, this is what we are supposed to do.”

 

[David_Brent]

VociMike:

But it is not for you or I to decide what is “enough” from Christ. When Christ offers Himself to us we are not within our rights to insist that what is offered is not really Christ after all but only a pseudo-meal to remind ourselves of Him. To insist that the Eucharist is not really Christ but that it is still “enough” is akin to insisting that e.g. Christ is not really God, but that He is still “enough”.

I don’t think that I can ever get “enough” of Christ. I constantly need more of Christ in that I need to know Him more; know Him better; know Him deeper; know Him more intimately. But I don’t actually “get” Christ by eating a host. I get more of Christ by asking Him in prayer to show me more of Him; to reveal Himself to me; to show me what He has for me. When Christ shows me something He wants from me or for me, I am expected to obey. That should be my only response.

A communion service at my church or Holy Communion at a Catholic mass is an opportunity to remember the sacrifice that Christ made for me. It is not “enough” for any of us – even if we’re talking about a transubstantiated host. Assuming that the host does transubstantiate, it would not be sufficient for you to simply take communion every week. That doesn’t mean anything. What reverance does it show God to take communion and genuflect once a week or once a day (for the serious mass-goers out there) if you make no other effort to become who God wants you to become and do the things that He is calling you to do?

 

[VociMike]

David Brent:

I don’t think you understand my point. I am not suggesting that Satan triumphed in any way. Satan lost once and for all.

My point is that you reject the Church which Christ left, the Church which He invested with authority and truth, while insisting that you accept Christ.

Christ Himself said, “do this in remembrance of me.” In remembrance.

We remember His Sacrifice at every Mass. After all, we’re the ones who have crucifixes in our churches.

He also said “this is my body” and “this is is my blood”. He said “My flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed”. The Church has always understood what He meant. But, having separated yourself (or been separated due to your upbringing) from the Church, you have lost that understanding. Instead you (the Protestant world) have had to invent torturous interpretations of Scripture and invisible conspiracies of history (“the winners erased all the true history!”) to arrive at your incorrect and hollow view of this source and summit of Christian life.

 

[VociMike]

David Brent:

I don’t think that I can ever get “enough” of Christ…

Now you’ve moved the goalposts. You had said that the “symbolic only” Lord’s Supper was “enough”. I said that it wasn’t up to you or I to decide that a partial (and thus partially false) understanding of Christ’s gift to us was “enough”.

 

[David_Brent]

chadwilliams:

Christ says otherwise. Read all of John Chapter 6. Play close attention to this part [verses 51-56]:

You don’t think that could be a bit metaphorical? Not unlike how the book of John opens discussing logos?

You don’t think it’s a bit oversimplified to say that all that matters is taking communion?

I think it’s important to read the verses before 6:51-56 too.

Jesus, the Bread of Life
22The next morning, back across the lake, crowds began gathering on the shore, waiting to see Jesus. For they knew that he and his disciples had come over together and that the disciples had gone off in their boat, leaving him behind. 23Several boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the Lord had blessed the bread and the people had eaten. 24When the crowd saw that Jesus wasn’t there, nor his disciples, they got into the boats and went across to Capernaum to look for him. 25When they arrived and found him, they asked, “Teacher, how did you get here?”

26Jesus replied, “The truth is, you want to be with me because I fed you, not because you saw the miraculous sign. 27But you shouldn’t be so concerned about perishable things like food. Spend your energy seeking the eternal life that I, the Son of Man, can give you. For God the Father has sent me for that very purpose.”

28They replied, “What does God want us to do?”

29Jesus told them, “This is what God wants you to do: Believe in the one he has sent.”

30They replied, “You must show us a miraculous sign if you want us to believe in you. What will you do for us? 31After all, our ancestors ate manna while they journeyed through the wilderness! As the Scriptures say, ‘Moses gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32Jesus said, “I assure you, Moses didn’t give them bread from heaven. My Father did. And now he offers you the true bread from heaven. 33The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34"Sir," they said, “give us that bread every day of our lives.”

35Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. No one who comes to me will ever be hungry again. Those who believe in me will never thirst. 36But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. 37However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. 38For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do what I want. 39And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them to eternal life at the last day. 40For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life—that I should raise them at the last day.”

41Then the people began to murmur in disagreement because he had said, “I am the bread from heaven.” 42They said, “This is Jesus, the son of Joseph. We know his father and mother. How can he say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43But Jesus replied, "Don’t complain about what I said. 44For people can’t come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them from the dead. 45As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me. 46(Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.)

47"I assure you, anyone who believes in me already has eternal life. 48Yes, I am the bread of life! 49Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died. 50However, the bread from heaven gives eternal life to everyone who eats it.

**