If only God omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, how do Saints hear a million requests for intercession at one time?

[PasionCatechist]

Hi, to all and good day. I have posted this question in hopes of gaining a deeper understanding of the common of saints.

I have spent some time discussing the beliefs of the Catholic Church concerning the common of saints with a practicing protestant friend of mine. This particular question has arised in our multiple converstaions together.

Hence, I wanted to throw this particular question out there in this forum as a thread to encourage other possible views and opinions concerning this question. Thank You and God Bless.

 

[PJM]

Hi, to all and good day. I have posted this question in hopes of gaining a deeper understanding of the common of saints.

I have spent some time discussing the beliefs of the Catholic Church concerning the common of saints with a practicing protestant friend of mine. This particular question has arised in our multiple converstaions together.

Hence, I wanted to throw this particular question out there in this forum as a thread to encourage other possible views and opinions concerning this question. Thank You and God Bless.

:tiphat: This is my acknowledgement for a GREAT POST!

Maybe this will help?

Q. What is a Saint? One KNOWN to be in Heaven!

Q. What qualified the person to be a Saint?

    1.  A proven exemplary life of Holiness while on earth.

    2.  Research and certification by The Church

    3.  All Saints and saints (in heaven but not formally  
    recogonized) must, have to be PERFECT inorder to be in
    the Presence of our Perfect God.

    4.  So how does this answer my question? When we are 
    thus "perfected," God allows the fact that we are made in His
    "image and likeness" to assume more "God-like" qualities.

    5. With God all things are possible, and to a far lesser extent
    so too with saints and Saints.

     6. Most importantly, we are only praying THROUGH these   
     Saints, **but too GOD!** GOD IS ALL KNOWING, and time 
     does not for God, nor for Gods saints:thumbsup: :extrahappy: :clapping:

 

[I_Believe]

Hi, I’d simply tell your friend that Faith is the bottom line.

God is the Omnipotent source of all. We, as the Faithful, must accept what has been revealed.

We don’t have the capacity to understand the supernatural. When we begin to look for proof or concrete evidence, we are basically revealing doubt. We are sinners all, and we have enough work cut out for us.

Ask your friend if he/she has ever had a prayer answered. If the answer is yes, than that should be enough to ease this specific concern.

God Bless

 

[Sir_Anthony]

well, I think you are looking at time too linearly, a thousand years in heaven could mean something entirely different here on earth. Not to mention that those saints in Heaven do not have bodies like us or minds like us, rather they are akin to angels. So really the idea that the saints can’t possibly hear our requests for intercessions is kind of a moo point (moo because a cow’s opinion doesn’t matter) as Heaven and Earth work differently

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I have heard it said that the Saints hear our prayers as they are reflected by and an amplified by God first and then the Saints hear them. The Saints respond to God back with their prayers on our behalf.

 

[eelpis]

The Saints see ALL that pertain to them in God, whom they contemplate face to face for all eternity. Also remember that their intellects are totally transformed by the Holy Spirit, they are freed from the limitations of this mortal life. The requests are not infinite so even an finite intellect can handle them.

 

[weepixie71]

to me it would make sense that God would want us to remember that very ordinary people like you and me did great, wonderful, and miraculous things.

life was hard for saints. they struggled here on Earth and through every struggle, pain, happiness, sadness, anxiety, they turned to God. and for this catholics believe He wants them to be honored and not forgotten. if there is nothing wrong with asking someone to pray for you here on Earth. why is it any different to ask a saint in heaven to pray for us?

i find this strange that protestants say only pray to God when i have witnessed several of them talk to the dead, who did not lead nearly as perfect lives with objects infront of them. ive seen them put flowers infront of gravestones and talk to their loved ones. ive seen them pick up a picture of grandma who passed on and say outloud that they miss them. how is it alright to talk to them but not to saints who are beyond a shadow of a doubt in heaven? one protestant may say thats different we knew them, loved them, and miss them. well we as catholics, love our saints, miss their wisdom, their strengths, their guidance, and their living examples of loving and serving God.

 

[maurin]

He told us that “I am the vine, you are the branches.”

One is a part of the other, the branches grow from the vine, are a part of the vine.

How much more so than for those who have eternal Beatitude with Him in Heaven?

 

[Eucharisted]

In Heaven, the blessed are spirits, no longer human beings, because they do not have bodies (for a man has a body and a soul). Now, this isn’t to say the saints are angels, but rather, because they are no longer with bodies, they cannot be called human beings, though they can be called human souls. At any rate, the blessed are not limited in hearing as we are on Earth, so they can know our prayers, as many as they are, and this by the power of God, for the Lord is their happiness and their everything.

 

[dcrowmik]

He told us that “I am the vine, you are the branches.”

One is a part of the other, the branches grow from the vine, are a part of the vine.

How much more so than for those who have eternal Beatitude with Him in Heaven?

Good answer.

In much the same way that the many different parts of the branch of a vine or tree here on earth do different jobs – through them they transmit the different minerals, nutrients, the light to the main part of the vine or the tree, etc., we can ascertain that being the same way with the Saints. We ask them, through our prayers, to intercede with God on our behalf. They in turn do so.

It’s almost the same as if we were sick and asked our friends to pray for us. We’ve all done that.

 

[twf]

And remember, as the priest says during holy mass, we ask God to allow us to share in the “divinity of Christ as he humbled himself to share in our humanity”. As St. Peter says, we have become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4) and, as St. John tells us, Christ gives us the means and the power to become true sons and daughters of God in his own image (see John 1:12). This is what the Eastern Churches call theosis and what we Latins usually call sanctification or deification. Through baptism we are infused with a share of the divine life of the Trinity. This life is strenghtened and nourished through the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, and by the time we reach heaven we are truly sons and daughters of God made in Christ’s own image…so of course the saints in heaven, Christ’s adopted brothers and sisters, share in some of his supernatural abilities (such as hearing our prayers). This is especially and uniquely true of His Blessed Mother, Mary, who reflects the Divine Trinity more perfectly and completely than any other creature.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I think the simple answer to this question is that God permits them to. It is not by their own doing they can hear our prayers, it is God’s doing, and He is perfectly capable of allowing this. To deny this would be to deny that God is omnipotent.

We believe in the Communion of Saints, which is to say that the living and those who have died in Christ remain in communion as the Mystical Body of Christ. The Saints are alive in heaven.

 

[palmas85]

My own personal belief is that the Saints along with God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, the Blessed Mother and the Angels exist outside of time as we know it. Therefore normal rules of nature would not apply to them. So for them to perceice millions of prayer requests seems a minor issued indeed.

At least that is how I see it.

 

[Chancellor]

The question about how Saints deal with prayer requests is interesting, here is an answer:

To quote St Paul: “It is not I who live but Christ who lives in me”.

Miracles performed by Saints are never performed by the Saint him or herself. All Saints affirm this. Miracles are performed by Christ working through the Saint.

If Christ is as we Catholics affirm God and if God is as you affirm omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent then a Saint may perform what appears to us to be miraculous, but it is not through human power or genius but through surrender to the power of God.

 

[Seeking12]

:tiphat: This is my acknowledgement for a GREAT POST!

Maybe this will help?

Q. What is a Saint? One KNOWN to be in Heaven!

Q. What qualified the person to be a Saint?

    1.  A proven exemplary life of Holiness while on earth.

    2.  Research and certification by The Church

    3.  All Saints and saints (in heaven but not formally  
    recogonized) must, have to be PERFECT inorder to be in
    the Presence of our Perfect God.

    4.  So how does this answer my question? When we are 
    thus "perfected," God allows the fact that we are made in His
    "image and likeness" to assume more "God-like" qualities.

    5. With God all things are possible, and to a far lesser extent
    so too with saints and Saints.

     6. Most importantly, we are only praying THROUGH these   
     Saints, **but too GOD!** GOD IS ALL KNOWING, and time 
     does not for God, nor for Gods saints:thumbsup: :extrahappy: :clapping:

**Is that a biblical understanding of saint?

Romans 1:7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called {as} saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 15:25 but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints. Is this Jerusalem in heaven?

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and {who are} faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which {exists} among you and your love for all the saints,

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons: (This is the biblical extent of the 2 named offices named in the NT)

Notice that in these people are on earth, not heaven, and that are are faithful in Christ. Much different than the definition from above.

Is there any mention of a certification by a “Church”? Why not?

The bottom line is that is you wait till the next life to be called a saint; then it will be too late.

Final thought: praying to saints or through saints is not a biblical position either, not to be confused with asking someone to pray “to God” for us. If one makes that analogy, then they are mincing words. Because the correct analogy using those terms would be to pray to your friend or neighbor in the hopes that they would actually hear the prayer and act on it, then have some special connection to God that you don’t…simply unbiblical, not to mention silly in my opinion.**

 

[twf]

Seeker12: You are mincing words. We are well aware that Christians on earth can be called “saints”. What does “saint” mean? Someone who is holy. All Christians are holy by virtue of their baptism in which we “put on Christ” (see Romans 6)…as true adopted sons and daughters of God we are, in a sense, indeed saints, as long as we cooperate with God’s grace and allow Christ to live within us. The Catholic Church calls all her children to live as saints through Our Lord’s presence within us. The Church has, since very early times, used the title in a special way to refer to those in heaven as they have already gone through the trials of life and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb to become spotless, holy, and sinless in every way. We on earth are “holy” by virtue of the grace (divine life) God has given us, but we are not yet perfected.

Those in heaven can indeed hear us and pray for us, as our brothers and sisters on earth can. Their prayers are indeed more powerful than our own, however, as they are now without sin and are in full and perfect communion with God…what does Scripture say about the prayer of a righteous man? (See James 5:16). Revelation clearly shows us that the saints and angels in heaven offer our prayers before God…see Rev 5 and 8. Please take a look at scripturecatholic.com/saints.html for more Scriptural references.

In Christ with Mary and all his angels and saints,

Tyler

 

[Seeking12]

Seeker12: You are mincing words. We are well aware that Christians on earth can be called “saints”. What does “saint” mean? Someone who is holy. All Christians are holy by virtue of their baptism in which we “put on Christ” (see Romans 6)…as true adopted sons and daughters of God we are, in a sense, indeed saints, as long as we cooperate with God’s grace and allow Christ to live within us. The Catholic Church calls all her children to live as saints through Our Lord’s presence within us. The Church has, since very early times, used the title in a special way to refer to those in heaven as they have already gone through the trials of life and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb to become spotless, holy, and sinless in every way. We on earth are “holy” by virtue of the grace (divine life) God has given us, but we are not yet perfected.

Those in heaven can indeed hear us and pray for us, as our brothers and sisters on earth can. Their prayers are indeed more powerful than our own, however, as they are now without sin and are in full and perfect communion with God…what does Scripture say about the prayer of a righteous man? (See James 5:16). Revelation clearly shows us that the saints and angels in heaven offer our prayers before God…see Rev 5 and 8. Please take a look at scripturecatholic.com/saints.html for more Scriptural references.

In Christ with Mary and all his angels and saints,

Tyler

**A saint is a saint is a saint; location means nothing to God. Where in Scripture is the idea of different degrees of saints or whatever you were saying? Where does it say a saint on earth can hear a saint in heaven or vice versa? Where is the evidence? Can you hear my prayers today? I did not hear yours either. You have two altars there. (Revelation 8) And that was the way it was in the temple in the tabernacle of old, you had the brazen altar, and then you had the altar of incense. The brazen altar was basically the altar used to fire the coals to burn the sacrifices for sin. And the altar of incense was where you poured the incense and the fragrance of the incense arose and was emblematic of the prayers of the people.

Typically, the priests would go to the brazen altar and he would take with tongs out of the brazen altar hot, fiery coals and he would put them in the censer which was just a little instrument by which he could transport these flaming coals. He would fill that little censer with the coals and he would take it in to the golden altar, which was the altar of incense, and he would put those coals on the altar of incense mixed with incense and they would rise, the smell of that incense would rise to the nostrils of God, as it were, symbolically speaking of the prayers of the people.

Twice a day the high priest would do this, once in the morning and once in the evening, at the morning sacrifice and at the evening sacrifice. The priest would go to the brazen altar and he would get fire, he would mingle it with incense, take it in right before the Holy of Holies, right by the veil, put it on the golden altar, and he would ignite that and it would send the incense upward and it was symbolizing exactly what the people were doing outside. For at the very time that he was doing that they were outside praying.
This angel is functioning like an Old Testament priest, he's standing there at the altar, he's got the golden censer in his hand. He gets the incense, probably given to him from God since God is the giver in this scene, in order that he might take this incense and the hot coals from that brazen altar, that symbolic brazen altar in the scene that John's having and they might go into the golden altar and put this down on the golden altar, mingled with all the rest of the prayers of the saints that are already there. **

 

[guanophore]

A saint is a saint is a saint; location means nothing to God.

If this were true, then why does Jesus say that He has special places prepared for His Apostles? Why does the book of Revelation indicate that certain of the Saints will be in special places of honor?

Where in Scripture is the idea of different degrees of saints or whatever you were saying?

Such a statement presupposes that all that God has revealed will be found in scripture. This is an error.

Rev 4:3-4
4 Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads.

Where does it say a saint on earth can hear a saint in heaven or vice versa?

Are you kidding?

Rev 5:7-9
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Do you think they don’t know what they are praying about?

Where is the evidence?

Rev 6:9-11

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

If they don’t know what is going on in the earth, why are they talking to God about it?

The evidence, in addition to scripture, is found in the life of the Church for the last 2000 years, if you are willing to explore it.
SHW;4842678:

Can you hear my prayers today?

If God desires it, sure.

I did not hear yours either.

Perhaps you were not willing?

You have two altars there. (Revelation 8)  And that was the way it was in the temple in the tabernacle of old, you had the brazen altar, and then you had the altar of incense.  The brazen altar was basically the altar used to fire the coals to burn the sacrifices for sin.  And the altar of incense was where you poured the incense and the fragrance of the incense arose and was emblematic of the prayers of the people.

Do you think these were not shadows of what was to come?

Typically, the priests would go to the brazen altar and he would take with tongs out of the brazen altar hot, fiery coals and he would put them in the censer which was just a little instrument by which he could transport these flaming coals. He would fill that little censer with the coals and he would take it in to the golden altar, which was the altar of incense, and he would put those coals on the altar of incense mixed with incense and they would rise, the smell of that incense would rise to the nostrils of God, as it were, symbolically speaking of the prayers of the people.

An image of what occurs in heaven!

Twice a day the high priest would do this, once in the morning and once in the evening, at the morning sacrifice and at the evening sacrifice. The priest would go to the brazen altar and he would get fire, he would mingle it with incense, take it in right before the Holy of Holies, right by the veil, put it on the golden altar, and he would ignite that and it would send the incense upward and it was symbolizing exactly what the people were doing outside. For at the very time that he was doing that they were outside praying.

Do you think he was unaware of those who were outside praying? Why should we be unaware of one another praying?

   This angel is functioning like an Old Testament priest, he's standing there at the altar, he's got the golden censer in his hand.  He gets the incense, probably given to him from God since God is the giver in this scene, in order that he might take this incense and the hot coals from that brazen altar, that symbolic brazen altar in the scene that John's having and they might go into the golden altar and put this down on the golden altar, mingled with all the rest of the prayers of the saints that are already there.

Why would the prayers of the saints already there be separated from the prayers of the saints still here?

such errors result from a misunderstanding of the communion of saints.

 

[MikeDunphy]

A saint is a saint is a saint; location means nothing to God. Where in Scripture is the idea of different degrees of saints or whatever you were saying?

In his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 13, St. Paul wrote “our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away”, and “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.”

By the grace of God, the ability of the saints to see and know does change for the better after death.

praying to saints or through saints is not a biblical position either

Where does it say a saint on earth can hear a saint in heaven or vice versa? Where is the evidence? Can you hear my prayers today? I did not hear yours either.

It sounds like you do not believe that the blessed in heaven cannot or do not pay attention to us on earth. Is that accurate? Hebrews 12:1 says that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. What kind of witnesses would be oblivious to us? In Revelations 6:10, the martyrs ask the Lord how long they must wait for justice to be done on earth. They take an interest in what happens in this world and they speak to God about it.

Christ Jesus founded a Church [Matthew 16:18] and His Church has invoked the saints in heaven from its earliest days. Many men in later centuries founded competing churches which ignore the saints. Whose way do you want to follow?

 

[twf]

Seeker12 - In addition to what MikeDunphy has pointed out…are you saying that those in heaven are not more perfected than those on earth? Not closer and more Christ-like than those on earth? Are you already sinless? I sure am not. You did not really address my post, and you did not address the link I provided. I’m sorry, but I just don’t see the logic, at all, of your “saint is a saint is a saint” argument…