If only God omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, how do Saints hear a million requests for intercession at one time?

[guanophore]

Is that a biblical understanding of saint?

Actually, understanding is a capability of persons, and since the Holy Scriptures are not a person, they do not “understand”.

If you mean is this understanding of “saint” consistent with what you are able to glean from scripture I would say no.

Therefore, the Apostolic Teaching of “saint” is not the same s what Seeking12 understands as a “saint”.

Romans 1:7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called {as} saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 15:25 but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints. Is this Jerusalem in heaven?

Are you excluding the saints here on earth from the communion of saints who are already in heaven?

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and {who are} faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which {exists} among you and your love for all the saints,

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

Catholics will have no disagreement that all of us are called to be saints. The Catholic Church formally recognizes that some have gone on to receive their heavenly reward. these are held up as role models for all of us, just like those in Heb. 11.

(This is the biblical extent of the 2 named offices named in the NT)

No. But it is Grist for another thread, Seek.

Notice that in these people are on earth, not heaven, and that are are faithful in Christ. Much different than the definition from above.

Not so different. Saints here have not finished the race. Saints already in heaven have.

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

Catholics will have no disagreement that all of us are called to be saints. The Catholic Church formally recognizes that some have gone on to receive their heavenly reward. these are held up as role models for all of us, just like those in Heb. 11.

Is there any mention of a certification by a “Church”? Why not?

Actually, there is! Jesus gave the Church the Authority to Bind and Loose. He said whatever they bound on earth would be bound in heaven.

It’s not a “certification” though.

It is a formal recognition of what God has already done.

The bottom line is that is you wait till the next life to be called a saint; then it will be too late.

In principle, I agree. Most of us, though, are too well aware of our faults to go thru this life being able to boast like Paul.

Final thought: praying to saints or through saints is not a biblical position either, not to be confused with asking someone to pray “to God” for us.

For those who accept the Apostolic Teaching on the Communion of Saints, there is no difference.

If one makes that analogy, then they are mincing words. Because the correct analogy using those terms would be to pray to your friend or neighbor in the hopes that they would actually hear the prayer and act on it, then have some special connection to God that you don’t…simply unbiblical, not to mention silly in my opinion.

You do not think that the effectual, fervent prayers of the righteous avail much? You think some people are not hindered in their prayers for various reasons? Are you really saying that some people don’t have a more effective prayer life than others?

 

[Seeking12]

In his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 13, St. Paul wrote “our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away”, and “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.”

By the grace of God, the ability of the saints to see and know does change for the better after death.

It sounds like you do not believe that the blessed in heaven cannot or do not pay attention to us on earth. Is that accurate? Hebrews 12:1 says that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. What kind of witnesses would be oblivious to us? In Revelations 6:10, the martyrs ask the Lord how long they must wait for justice to be done on earth. They take an interest in what happens in this world and they speak to God about it.

Christ Jesus founded a Church [Matthew 16:18] and His Church has invoked the saints in heaven from its earliest days. Many men in later centuries founded competing churches which ignore the saints. Whose way do you want to follow?

**You are very good at reading that which is not there; it is called imposing on the text, usually done to make the Bible fit one’s own theology. For example, the cloud is likely the the “church”, which has grown tremendously and therefore there are many witnesses around. To imply it is saints floating around is imposing on the text. Another example; Revelation 6:10 is probably nothing more than these saints getting a little impatient to get those new bodies; again you imposed that they are watching of the earth. The big one is to impose the position of Christ as the Petra onto the Petros. Christ is always known as the foundation to which everything else is built upon. Do a little word search in the NT using the word stone and stones and you will see that all believers, including Peter, are stones and the chief stone is always the Lord. Very simple.

What have you shown here; you are very good at imposing on the text. It is not a skill to be admired and one that can actually cause great harm to one’s self and others that you impose that garbage on. Be careful because God will hold those to account the handling of His word including myself.**

 

[Brendan]

Hi, to all and good day. I have posted this question in hopes of gaining a deeper understanding of the common of saints.

I have spent some time discussing the beliefs of the Catholic Church concerning the common of saints with a practicing protestant friend of mine. This particular question has arised in our multiple converstaions together.

Hence, I wanted to throw this particular question out there in this forum as a thread to encourage other possible views and opinions concerning this question. Thank You and God Bless.

The answer is pretty simple.

Hearing a finite number of humans, saying a finite number of prayers within a finite amount of space is, by definition,a finite action.

So what we Catholics are saying is that saints are capabile of finite actions.

How could anyone have a problem with us saying that?

 

[adstrinity]

My own personal belief is that the Saints along with God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, the Blessed Mother and the Angels exist outside of time as we know it. Therefore normal rules of nature would not apply to them. So for them to perceice millions of prayer requests seems a minor issued indeed.

At least that is how I see it.

well, I think you are looking at time too linearly, a thousand years in heaven could mean something entirely different here on earth. Not to mention that those saints in Heaven do not have bodies like us or minds like us, rather they are akin to angels. So really the idea that the saints can’t possibly hear our requests for intercessions is kind of a moo point (moo because a cow’s opinion doesn’t matter) as Heaven and Earth work differently

The answer is pretty simple.

Hearing a finite number of humans, saying a finite number of prayers within a finite amount of space is, by definition,a finite action.

So what we Catholics are saying is that saints are capabile of finite actions.

How could anyone have a problem with us saying that?

These three. There is no time in Heaven. It’s not so much they hear millions of prayers at once, it’s that they hear the prayers when and how they hear the prayers.

Also, only The Trinity IS All Powerful, All Being, and All Knowing, but, that doesn’t mean that the Saints can’t be more Powerful, Being, and Knowing than we are right here.

 

[allhers]

Here is one of the best explanations that I have found on it, it is the way I have always understood the Communion of Saints also.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=385389&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2003&Author=&Keyword=Communion+of+Saints&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=1&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

 

[Seeking12]

Seeker12 - In addition to what MikeDunphy has pointed out…are you saying that those in heaven are not more perfected than those on earth? Not closer and more Christ-like than those on earth? Are you already sinless? I sure am not. You did not really address my post, and you did not address the link I provided. I’m sorry, but I just don’t see the logic, at all, of your “saint is a saint is a saint” argument…

**The degree of perfection is not the issue; the issue was if you are a saint, then you are a saint. There are only two types of people throughout history of man; the saints and the majority the “aints”.

I agree the saints in heaven no longer have the stain of sin as the saints on earth do. We hope that is obvious to everyone. Sorry for the confusion. I’ll look at your other post shortly.

God bless!**

 

[Seeking12]

Seeker12: You are mincing words. We are well aware that Christians on earth can be called “saints”. What does “saint” mean? Someone who is holy. All Christians are holy by virtue of their baptism in which we “put on Christ” (see Romans 6)…as true adopted sons and daughters of God we are, in a sense, indeed saints, as long as we cooperate with God’s grace and allow Christ to live within us. The Catholic Church calls all her children to live as saints through Our Lord’s presence within us. The Church has, since very early times, used the title in a special way to refer to those in heaven as they have already gone through the trials of life and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb to become spotless, holy, and sinless in every way. We on earth are “holy” by virtue of the grace (divine life) God has given us, but we are not yet perfected.

Those in heaven can indeed hear us and pray for us, as our brothers and sisters on earth can. Their prayers are indeed more powerful than our own, however, as they are now without sin and are in full and perfect communion with God…what does Scripture say about the prayer of a righteous man? (See James 5:16). Revelation clearly shows us that the saints and angels in heaven offer our prayers before God…see Rev 5 and 8. Please take a look at scripturecatholic.com/saints.html for more Scriptural references.

In Christ with Mary and all his angels and saints,

Tyler

**I looked at that website, but there is way too much information to sort through…sorry.

God alone is omnipresent & omnipresent, part of what makes God, God. Saints do not have these characteristics as far as what Scripture has revealed, so I would stick to praying how Jesus taught us, which is to and through God. That is not what your faith teaches, so live by your own faith and I will live by mine.**

 

[johnpaul87]

well, I think you are looking at time too linearly, a thousand years in heaven could mean something entirely different here on earth. Not to mention that those saints in Heaven do not have bodies like us or minds like us, rather they are akin to angels. So really the idea that the saints can’t possibly hear our requests for intercessions is kind of a moo point (moo because a cow’s opinion doesn’t matter) as Heaven and Earth work differently

hey anthony. bible says all saved people are saints. help me out here. if all saints are in heaven, why does jesus raise them in the endtimes. plus, jesus comes back to fight, after raising his saints, with ten thousands of saints. the vatican only has a hundered or so authorised. the vatican better get busy appointing those ten thousands. by the way, tell the pope not to forget me

 

[johnpaul87]

The answer is pretty simple.

Hearing a finite number of humans, saying a finite number of prayers within a finite amount of space is, by definition,a finite action.

So what we Catholics are saying is that saints are capabile of finite actions.

How could anyone have a problem with us saying that?

hey brendon, i dont have a prob with you saying that. its a free country. you know, im gonna go with the bible. it says the dead await judgement asleep. thats why they have to be raised. so, what the bible says is wrong? plus, i reread revelations.just no meantion of saints hangin around up there. some say the vials are prayers of saints that have died. not so. they are the prayers of ALIVE saints. the saved body of christ.

 

[johnpaul87]

**The degree of perfection is not the issue; the issue was if you are a saint, then you are a saint. There are only two types of people throughout history of man; the saints and the majority the “aints”.

I agree the saints in heaven no longer have the stain of sin as the saints on earth do. We hope that is obvious to everyone. Sorry for the confusion. I’ll look at your other post shortly.

God bless!**

hey seeking, there are only a couple humans in heaven. those are the ones god took up instead of letting them die. enoch, moses and elisha. god took moses even though he left his body behind. why? i dont know. you will have to take that up with jesus. elisha and moses are the two olive trees in heaven. you know how hot headed elisha was. the two witnesses that will be here in the tribulation most likely are moses and elisha. their ministry sounds so much like their ministry when they were on earth. but no other meantion of anyone else being up there. the thief on the cross might be up there. but im just not seeing anyone else being named as in heaven. and the idea of the vatican saying who is and who isnt a saint is just beyond me.

 

[Seeking12]

hey seeking, there are only a couple humans in heaven. those are the ones god took up instead of letting them die. enoch, moses and elisha. god took moses even though he left his body behind. why? i dont know. you will have to take that up with jesus. elisha and moses are the two olive trees in heaven. you know how hot headed elisha was. the two witnesses that will be here in the tribulation most likely are moses and elisha. their ministry sounds so much like their ministry when they were on earth. but no other meantion of anyone else being up there. the thief on the cross might be up there. but im just not seeing anyone else being named as in heaven. and the idea of the vatican saying who is and who isnt a saint is just beyond me.

**You might want to include Paul; absent from the body present with the Lord. **

 

[MikeDunphy]

You are very good at reading that which is not there; it is called imposing on the text, usually done to make the Bible fit one’s own theology. For example, the cloud is likely the the “church”, which has grown tremendously and therefore there are many witnesses around. To imply it is saints floating around is imposing on the text. Another example; Revelation 6:10 is probably nothing more than these saints getting a little impatient to get those new bodies; again you imposed that they are watching of the earth. The big one is to impose the position of Christ as the Petra onto the Petros. Christ is always known as the foundation to which everything else is built upon. Do a little word search in the NT using the word stone and stones and you will see that all believers, including Peter, are stones and the chief stone is always the Lord. Very simple**.**

If you continue reading Hebrews 12, in verses 22-23 you will see St. Paul tell the Hebrew Christians that, though still on earth, they have “come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect”.

Despite our gross imperfections here on earth, we are one Church, both in heaven and on earth, branches of the True Vine, Who is Christ Jesus our Lord, through Whom we are united in one mystical body, and to Whom be given glory now and forever.

Your claim that the “cloud of witnesses” that St. Paul speaks of is merely the Church on earth, isolated from the spirits of the righteous made perfect, appears to me to be your own “imposing on the text”.

So how can we sort out who is reading these passages correctly (if either of us is)? I mentioned Matthew 16, not in order to talk about the man whom Jesus named “Rock”, but to hightlight that our Lord did build a Church, and He promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. We can turn to the teachings of the Church for guidance because His Church is “pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). We do not have have that guarantee for any Church founded by anyone but Him.

P.S. Earlier today PJM presented a detailed Scriptural defense of the importance of St. Peter.

 

[Seeking12]

If you continue reading Hebrews 12, in verses 22-23 you will see St. Paul tell the Hebrew Christians that, though still on earth, they have “come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect”.

Despite our gross imperfections here on earth, we are one Church, both in heaven and on earth, branches of the True Vine, Who is Christ Jesus our Lord, through Whom we are united in one mystical body, and to Whom be given glory now and forever.

Your claim that the “cloud of witnesses” that St. Paul speaks of is merely the Church on earth, isolated from the spirits of the righteous made perfect, appears to me to be your own “imposing on the text”.

So how can we sort out who is reading these passages correctly (if either of us is)? I mentioned Matthew 16, not in order to talk about the man whom Jesus named “Rock”, but to hightlight that our Lord did build a Church, and He promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. We can turn to the teachings of the Church for guidance because His Church is “pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). We do not have have that guarantee for any Church founded by anyone but Him.

P.S. Earlier today PJM presented a detailed Scriptural defense of the importance of St. Peter.

**I looked at his defense; it is very saddening. Total lack of understanding of Scripture, but that is the majority of so called Christians from the very beginnings of the church, it just very sad.
That is not a personal attack; it is just the way things are and always have been and will continue to be.

To answer you question; I need to look more closely at the passages; I believe part of the key to understanding is looking back to chapter 11, the heroes of the faith. It is interesting and worth perusing. **

 

[guanophore]

**I looked at his defense; it is very saddening. Total lack of understanding of Scripture, but that is the majority of so called Christians from the very beginnings of the church, it just very sad.
That is not a personal attack; it is just the way things are and always have been and will continue to be. **

I think this lack of understanding will continue so long as Scripture is separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced it.

 

[guanophore]

Finally, the losing and binding; what is this all about and who does it pertain to?

He said that to Peter but it wasn’t just unique to Peter. It was true of all the other Apostles,

This is the authority to legislate - make rules and enforce them. I agree, it is a charism that was given to all the Apostles, and they passed it on to their successors, the bishops.

it's true of all preachers, it's true of all of us.

No. However, I will agree that intinerants (separated from the Authority appointed by Christ) have and do take it upon themselves to make their own rules as they see fit.

And then He says this, “Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” And that particular statement has been misused repeatedly and confused. It’s very simple, not even complicated. The rabbis used to say, “If you don’t repent your sin is bound to you. If you do, it’s loosed from you.” That’s an old rabbinical concept. The rabbis would say, “You obey the Law, you’re free. You disobey the Law, you’re bound in sin.” Whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

And who was the one to decide what “sin” is?

In other words, when you say to someone.“You won’t repent, you’re bound in your sin,” heaven is in agreement with that. You’re doing on earth what has been done in heaven, like the disciples’ (AKA: Lord’s prayer) prayer says. And if you say to someone, “You know, I want to tell you, because of your confession of faith in Jesus Christ and your affirmation that He’s your Savior and Lord, your sins are loosed from you, you are forgiven,” and when you said that you know you’re saying on earth what heaven has already said. This great eternal plan is being worked out that God ordained before time began with the Son and heaven is on schedule with it and we get to be the earthly gate keepers who act in harmony with heaven. What a privilege.

I do not disagree with what you have said here. It is only a small portion of the authority given to the church, though.

**
How many have you asked? Was it a statistically significant? It is interesting that when you showed the passage; they were able to conclude correctly that it was the "body of Christ, which is the church.

Invisible is not exactly the best way to describe it, maybe in a general context that we cannot see the “E” for elect, which is the true church and since so many false believers have infiltrated; it has become nearly invisible in that sense.

The Bible does not save, but the Word of God does and the Word is contained in the Bible.

Someone may tell you something about the Bible, but it is the individual’s responsibility to see if it is true; do you do that? The prophecy alone would be enough. The word “Israel” would be enough. But the best proof of the authenticity is the regenerate message it gives is true.

When you say we need the Church for salvation; you are again imposing your beliefs on the Scripture rather than viewing the Church teaching in light of what Scripture say; this is a real big mistake for many reasons.**

**....the true church and since so many false believers have infiltrated; it has become nearly invisible in that sense..**

No, Seeking. The presence of falsehoods does not nullify the truth.

The Bible does not save, but the Word of God does and the Word is contained in the Bible.

This is a CAtholic belief. However, we would also say that the Word of God is not contained “to” the Bible, but is also alive and well in the Church.

Someone may tell you something about the Bible, but it is the individual's responsibility to see if it is true; do you do that?

Yes, we always check it with the gospel that was delivered to us by the Apostles. Often we find that what is derived by people from Scripture constitutes “a different gospel” than the one preached ot us, so we have to reject it.

 

[guanophore]

**
they were able to conclude correctly that it was the "body of Christ, which is the church.

Invisible is not exactly the best way to describe it, maybe in a general context that we cannot see the “E” for elect, which is the true church and since so many false believers have infiltrated; it has become nearly invisible in that sense.

The Bible does not save, but the Word of God does and the Word is contained in the Bible.

Someone may tell you something about the Bible, but it is the individual’s responsibility to see if it is true; do you do that? The prophecy alone would be enough. The word “Israel” would be enough. But the best proof of the authenticity is the regenerate message it gives is true.

When you say we need the Church for salvation; you are again imposing your beliefs on the Scripture rather than viewing the Church teaching in light of what Scripture say; this is a real big mistake for many reasons.**

**....the true church and since so many false believers have infiltrated; it has become nearly invisible in that sense..**

No, Seeking. The presence of falsehoods does not nullify the truth.

The Bible does not save, but the Word of God does and the Word is contained in the Bible.

This is a CAtholic belief. However, we would also say that the Word of God is not contained “to” the Bible, but is also alive and well in the Church.

Someone may tell you something about the Bible, but it is the individual's responsibility to see if it is true; do you do that?

Yes, we always check it with the gospel that was delivered to us by the Apostles. Often we find that what is derived by people from Scripture constitutes “a different gospel” than the one preached ot us, so we have to reject it.

When you say we need the Church for salvation; you are again imposing your beliefs on the Scripture rather than viewing the Church teaching in light of what Scripture say; this is a real big mistake for many reasons

There is no need for Catholics to do any such thing. The NT reflects Catholic beliefs 100%. We view the Scripture in the light of the Apostolic Teaching from whence it came. There is no conflict, until someone steps away from Apostolic TEaching.

**What is the household of God? Of course the other things, Mary, purgatory, the Whole Catholic system hangs onto one verse in Scripture Matthew 16:18; without that one verse the whole Church crumbles. Kind of amazing that an entire system can be built upon one verse. **

I am sorry, Seeking, but you are wrong on this point. The Catholic Church is not a “bible based” Church. None of our Teachings hand on any verse of Scripture. The teachings come from Christ. They are REFLECTED in the NT, but the NT is not the Source of our faith, Jesus is. The Church was formed prior to the NT was written. Peter was renamed, and called Kepha (The Rock) for years before any NT letters began to be composed.

But to each their own and their own view; you must stick with what you believe in and be ready to give a defense and the Catholics here, for the most part, do a very good job.  I could honestly say to a Catholic that if they want to grow stronger in the Catholic faith, this would be a good place to go.

Thank you Seeking. It is very magnanamous of you to say this, especiallly in light of the fact that you disagree with us. May God richly bless your generous spirit.

 

[guanophore]

**I looked at that website, but there is way too much information to sort through…sorry.

God alone is omnipresent & omnipresent, part of what makes God, God. Saints do not have these characteristics as far as what Scripture has revealed, so I would stick to praying how Jesus taught us, which is to and through God. That is not what your faith teaches, so live by your own faith and I will live by mine.**

You are wrong again Seeking! The Catholic Church does teach that only God is omnipresent. However, we also know that He allows anyone He wishes to partake of His divine nature. For example, He allowed Samuel to appear to Saul, and He allowed Moses and Elijah to appear to Jesus at the Transfiguration. He allowed both the Apostles Paul and John to be “caught up” into heaven and to see visions. Paul said he was not even allowed to speak about some of the things he saw. This does not make him Divine. Just a partaker of the Divine privilege.

 

[johnpaul87]

**You might want to include Paul; absent from the body present with the Lord. **

hey seek, thats a difficult concept. present with christ. the unsaved dead might have a different sleep than the saved dead. then theres the possibility that saved in christ might be treated differently than old test folks that are saved. but there is a resurection of the saved. so they arent up and about, i guess. good topic. ill have to ask someone more knowlegable than myself on that topic.

 

[guanophore]

hey seek, thats a difficult concept. present with christ. the unsaved dead might have a different sleep than the saved dead. then theres the possibility that saved in christ might be treated differently than old test folks that are saved. but there is a resurection of the saved. so they arent up and about, i guess. good topic. ill have to ask someone more knowlegable than myself on that topic.

What do you think Moses and Elijah were doing, having a little chat with the Lord? If this is not “up and about” I don’t know what is!

 

[johnpaul87]

What do you think Moses and Elijah were doing, having a little chat with the Lord? If this is not “up and about” I don’t know what is!

hi guano, i already said those guys were in heaven. they were taken up.say, im kinda thinkin youre a cool gal.