P
Pag_Hingowa
Guest
Please discuss.
If people believe in God on faith, why is this alleged evidence so important to them?
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T
tonyrey
Guest
Faith without evidence is irrational because evidence includes subjective experience. 
P
Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Besides faith, we have an intellect.
Physics believe that the bosom of Higgins exist. They already know its structure and characteristics. Yes, they are spending billions to discover it.
C
cho_pilo
Guest
No it doesn’t.Faith without evidence is irrational because evidence includes subjective experience.
J
JRKH
Guest
I would give two answers to this.
James
- The evidences provide both a confirmation and a strengthening for faith
- The evidences are useful in discussion with those who do not believe but are truly seeking.
James
C
cho_pilo
Guest
I agree!
Believing something on the grounds of evidence is only as lasting as the evidence - which may be of very short duration.
Much of the evidence that theists claim to be evidence of God is actually indirect, circumstantial - a matter of interpretation.
I’m calling you a No True Scotsman on this one, for the time being.
There is no consensus on what “a true seeker” is.
J
JRKH
Guest
The strengthening can be of much greater duration. For instance. God spoke to me once very briefly and quietly - a single statement, but the strength derived from it has lasted for years.
Surely. But then the same can be said for the claims of atheists.
Well since I am American of German descent who never claimed to be a Scotsman of any type…I guess I have no opinion in this comment…
As I use the term, I am speaking of those who are open minded in their seeking. We meet many who question our beliefs, but not so much to seek greater understanding but rather to reenforce their own, already hardened, conclusions.
Peace
James
J
Jesus_123
Guest
:bible1:
For we are his workmanship,
created in **Christ Jesus **
in good works,
which God hath prepared
that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10
+Believing faith is a holy gift of God’s grace . . . imparted to the soul by our **Wonderful God ** . . .
For we are his workmanship,
created in **Christ Jesus **
in good works,
which God hath prepared
that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10
+Believing faith is a holy gift of God’s grace . . . imparted to the soul by our **Wonderful God ** . . .
:bible1: Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;
:bible1: James 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
:bible1: James 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
:bible1: James 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
:bible1: James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
:bible1: James 2:22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and** by works faith was made perfect**?
:bible1: James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and NOT by faith only?
:bible1: James 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
:bible1: James 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
:bible1: James 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
:bible1: James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
:bible1: James 2:22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and** by works faith was made perfect**?
:bible1: James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and NOT by faith only?
. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord+
. . . thank You Gracious Heavenly Father+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary our Mother+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord+
. . . thank You Gracious Heavenly Father+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary our Mother+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
C
cho_pilo
Guest
How do you know it was God?
J
JRKH
Guest
I knew it was God because of the specific situation, what was said, and what I felt in my heart upon hearing it - Something that stemmed from such an overwhelming Love and peace that it actually startled me.
Now this may not be an explanation that fits with what some consider “evidence”, and indeed it is not something that can be “explained” in any sort of scientific way, but believe me, when it happens, the person of faith, or the seeker of faith, knows it…
Peace
James
J
Jesus_123
Guest
+Christianity . . . as taught by our Holy Mother Church . . . is by no means a “religion” of human reason alone . . . at the beginning of Fides et ratio . . .
IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
FIDES ET RATIO
To the Bishops
of the Catholic Church
on the relationship
between Faith and Reason
1998.09.14
:compcoff: Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/_INDEX.HTM
is recorded a blessing from our highly esteemed Holy Father . . . Pope John Paul the Great . . . which brings into focus . . . **human reason ** . . . and its significance in . . . participating with . . . God . . . in the salvific nature of the Holy Gift of Christian Faith . . .
Continuing on in Fides et ratio, Chapter 1, Section #9 . . .
:bible1:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,
saith the Lord.”***
Isaiah 55:8***
IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
FIDES ET RATIO
To the Bishops
of the Catholic Church
on the relationship
between Faith and Reason
1998.09.14
:compcoff: Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/_INDEX.HTM
is recorded a blessing from our highly esteemed Holy Father . . . Pope John Paul the Great . . . which brings into focus . . . **human reason ** . . . and its significance in . . . participating with . . . God . . . in the salvific nature of the Holy Gift of Christian Faith . . .
“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of TRUTH; and God has placed in the human 
heart a desire to know the TRUTH—in a word, to know HIMSELF—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).”
heart a desire to know the TRUTH—in a word, to know HIMSELF—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).”
Continuing on in Fides et ratio, Chapter 1, Section #9 . . .
"…Based upon God’s testimony and enjoying the supernatural assistance of grace,
- FAITH is of an order
other than - PHILOSOPHICAL knowledge which depends upon sense perception and experience and which advances by the light of the intellect alone. **
- **PHILOSOPHY****and the sciences function within the order of natural reason;
- FAITH, enlightened and guided by the Spirit, recognizes in the message of salvation the “fullness of grace and truth” (cf. Jn 1:14) which God has willed to reveal in history and definitively through his Son, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Jn 5:9; Jn 5:31-32)."
:bible1:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,
saith the Lord.”***
Isaiah 55:8***
. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank You Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you blessed Pope John Paul II+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank You Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you blessed Pope John Paul II+
C
cho_pilo
Guest
In other words you don’t know it was God, you just decided it must be.
Ya think?
People have been having delusions/ visions for centuries. And science can give pretty good explanations now.
You mean they assume. Based on a pre-existing belief.
A
Abba
Guest
Do you have something in particular in mind?
A
Abba
Guest
Consider the possibility that it was God.
If it was God, he may not have to make the intellectual exercise of ‘deciding’ that it was God.
If it was God, the experience of the Divine would be extraordinary and by that I mean not common to this world nor to the things of this world. God is God and does not have to introduce himself to his creatures - nor shake hands. The soul recognizes it’s maker for whom it has been longing.
We have indeed come to a better understanding of the study of the human mind and brain but, there are delusions and visions caused by maladies of the brain and there are apparitions of the Divine.
How has science explained Fatima? How has science explained Lourdes?
You see, this is a good reason to have ‘evidence’ of this type, exactly to lead others to God and they are useful because of the stage some people are at.
You mean they assume. Based on a pre-existing belief.
T
TimothyH
Guest
Ha! Read the latest?
God Particle May Be a Mirage
Scientists chasing a particle they believe may have
played a vital role in creation of the universe indicated
on Monday they were coming to accept it might not
exist after all.
Read more: foxnews.com/scitech/2011/08/23/god-particle-may-be-mirage-scientists-hint/#ixzz1XTI5IHmi
J
JRKH
Guest
I say I know - You say I assume…
What is my “evidence” is to you nothing at all…That’s free will…
Peace
James
V
vsedriver
Guest
Me too. I think it is what really keeps me going. Of course it is only evidence to me and there is no way for me to ‘prove’ it to someone else.
C
cho_pilo
Guest
Correct.I say I know - You say I assume…
Because you don’t know, you assume and believe.
It’s not evidence.
D
davidv
Guest
Seems to me you have no basis on which to make either of these claims. Can you read the other persons heart and mind? I don’t think so.
Is there an anti-religion bias causing these denials?
A
Abba
Guest
According to you, how would one KNOW? How can one make sure that one is not ASSUMING NOR SIMPLY BELIEVING, in your book?
So, if Jesus wanted to appear to you or speak to you directly, he would have to do so according to body of knowledge of science that humans have as of the date of the occurrence? He would have to respect the laws he created? How could this be? According to science there is no resurrection and no God. So, according to your rule for God, he cannot participate with his creatures nor creation.
You tell him.
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