"If pre-marital sex is a sin, what about children born of it?"

[fled]

Hello, My name is Jean-Paul and this is my first post ever. Hello folks. I’m a youth group leader in Barbados, and we are currently having a 4 week seminar on the Virtue of Chastity.

Now its apparent that we (as team leaders) did not give this enough thought because one of our Youth Leaders, lets call her Cathy, is an unmarried mother of two, and on top of all of that, Cathy’s children were the cause of the majority of her conversion. She says without her kids, she would be still living the sinful promiscuous life. Cathy is also in the midst of converting from Anglican Church to the Catholic Church.

Now our Youth Meet is Friday, and I could tell then she was uneasy. Because while everyone was up there giving a testimony and sharing and the leaders are teaching the Church’s position on Chastity, all she was hearing was “How not to screw up like Cathy.”

So now Cathy feels ostracized, she was going to give her personal testimony, but she declined because she felt that she would be speaking about her children as a consequence of pre-marital sex, as an unwanted event, when the opposite is true for her. They are her life. On top of that, she proclaims if she had to do it all over again she would not change a thing, because it made her the person she is today.

Now while that is good and well for Cathy, some of the other leaders didn’t want to put across the message of “Well pre-marital sex is a sin, BUT if you do have it, you can still turn out ok like Cathy ”

So Cathy put to me: “If pre-marital sex is such a sin, what about my kids? What about them helping me give my life to God?” I will admit, Cathy has me stumped, and one if my degrees is in Theology.

I know that theologically, this has to do with Divine Providence, God having the ability to make something good come out of something bad, and that Life is always a gift and a blessing under any circumstance. But I have searched the forum, and I would some further advice on what to tell her. I sense she is about to quit our youth group because of her perception that one of the Church’s teachings is seemingly attacking her children’s existence.

Thank you in advance and God bless you guys.
JP

 

[tequilamac]

Hello, My name is Jean-Paul and this is my first post ever. Hello folks. I’m a youth group leader in Barbados, and we are currently having a 4 week seminar on the Virtue of Chastity.

Now its apparent that we (as team leaders) did not give this enough thought because one of our Youth Leaders, lets call her Cathy, is an unmarried mother of two, and on top of all of that, Cathy’s children were the cause of the majority of her conversion. She says without her kids, she would be still living the sinful promiscuous life. Cathy is also in the midst of converting from Anglican Church to the Catholic Church.

Now our Youth Meet is Friday, and I could tell then she was uneasy. Because while everyone was up there giving a testimony and sharing and the leaders are teaching the Church’s position on Chastity, all she was hearing was “How not to screw up like Cathy.”

So now Cathy feels ostracized, she was going to give her personal testimony, but she declined because she felt that she would be speaking about her children as a consequence of pre-marital sex, as an unwanted event, when the opposite is true for her. They are her life. On top of that, she proclaims if she had to do it all over again she would not change a thing, because it made her the person she is today.

Now while that is good and well for Cathy, some of the other leaders didn’t want to put across the message of “Well pre-marital sex is a sin, BUT if you do have it, you can still turn out ok like Cathy ”

So Cathy put to me: “If pre-marital sex is such a sin, what about my kids? What about them helping me give my life to God?” I will admit, Cathy has me stumped, and one if my degrees is in Theology.

I know that theologically, this has to do with Divine Providence, God having the ability to make something good come out of something bad, and that Life is always a gift and a blessing under any circumstance. But I have searched the forum, and I would some further advice on what to tell her. I sense she is about to quit our youth group because of her perception that one of the Church’s teachings is seemingly attacking her children’s existence.

Thank you in advance and God bless you guys.
JP

Well well well. These things do happen. I would venture a couple of thoughts. You say that Cathy is a youth group leader, but she is in the process of converting.
Your occasion of the group was encouraging chastity. And Cathy is not a prime example of exercising chastity.
So- here is a hard thought. As a mother of children, I would prefer to have my children in a Catholic youth group led by catholics, not anglicans even if they are converting. And if they are learning about chastity I would prefer they learn from someone who has exercised it.
It sounds like, even though Cathy may have her heart ultimately in the right place, she may not be a good role model. If it were me, I would tell Cathy that youth group LEADERS need to be Catholics in good standing and when she has successfully completed RCIA you would be thrilled to have her join you.
A hard thing I know, but you must shoulder the responsibility for a s you say you did not put enough thought into how to choose your leaders. Show Cathy you take the Church’s requirements seriously and show her the door out of leadership roles. She is not yet ready to lead anyone in the Church. The souls you lead are too precious to risk giving them the wrong impression.

 

[fled]

Aside from skits, Cathy’s role as one of the leaders is one of Support, mainly in food and beverage. Her would be testimony would have been the most time spent in front of the microphone. The teachings and “messages” are delivered by trained Catholics youth ministers such as myself and others.

However I do appreciate your frankness tequilamac and maybe that is the responsible option I have shied away from. You do make a hard point we as leaders will have to consider, because even if Cathy is not involved in teaching, many of our teens look up to her and come to her for advice.

However, I would still like to have something to say to her that would demonstrate that the Church cherishes life, planned or not.

 

[Della]

The answer to Cathy’s question is that God can make good come out of the bad decisions we make. It sounds like she is on the right track and that her children helped her “see the light.” While having premarital sex was a bad thing, her children are God’s way of making good come into her life, as she herself acknowledges. And that’s the testimony she has to give–and a very uplifting one it is too!

 

[BLB_Oregon]

We are all children of Adam and Eve, all born with the stain of their original sin. It doesn’t get any worse than that. It is, however, as the Easter Vigil puts it “the happy sin” and the “necessary sin of Adam” that won for us our Beloved Savior!

You can tell your students that every time they look at a crucifix, they need to remember one thing: Jesus showed that God can take the worst thing in the world, even the worst thing anyone ever did, and turn it into the best thing. All that is required is that we remain faithful, as He did. The power of God can be trusted to do the rest.

As for Cathy, she does not know what God had in store for her had she had her children within a sacramental marriage to a man who could have helped her raise them, who could have cherished her and revered her as the mother of those beautiful children should have been cherished and revered. We never know what would have been. We only know what was. It is a wonderful testament to her trust in God that He brought her a life she cherishes, even lacking a man to be husband to her and father to his own and her own children.

Also, the father(s) of those children was not so blessed as she was. They did not share the wonderful life she had with those kids. So perhaps if she had her children differently, it would have been the kids’ father who would have been praising God, for the wonderful wife and children God gave him.

 

[puzzleannie]

It sounds from what little we know about the situation, that Cathy already has the answer, that God in his infinite love and mercy can take our mistakes, even our sins, and make good come from them. I think she would probably be the first to admit that while she repents for her part in any sin, she is the first to accept that the children that resulted are gifts from God, are precious and deserving of life and all that life has for them. Her is a wonderful pro-life message. I imagine that as a single mother she can also testify that raising children alone is hard, and they would be better off with a father, but that trust in God gives a single parent the grace and strength needed. She should not be put on the spot to give testimony if she does not want to, but certainly the youth, and the adults involved, should be reminded that we cannot judge another person, and cannot make any assumption about their spiritual state based on what little we know of their life circumstances, although we can certainly make objective judgements about actions.

 

[fled]

Thank you all so very much for taking the the time out to reply with such wisdom, thoughfulness and compassion. I feel better equipped now, along with alot of prayer, to lovingly resond to and reassure my sister in Christ.

God bless,
JP

 

[Orionthehunter]

Well well well. These things do happen. I would venture a couple of thoughts. You say that Cathy is a youth group leader, but she is in the process of converting.
Your occasion of the group was encouraging chastity. And Cathy is not a prime example of exercising chastity.
So- here is a hard thought. As a mother of children, I would prefer to have my children in a Catholic youth group led by catholics, not anglicans even if they are converting. And if they are learning about chastity I would prefer they learn from someone who has exercised it.
It sounds like, even though Cathy may have her heart ultimately in the right place, she may not be a good role model. If it were me, I would tell Cathy that youth group LEADERS need to be Catholics in good standing and when she has successfully completed RCIA you would be thrilled to have her join you.
A hard thing I know, but you must shoulder the responsibility for a s you say you did not put enough thought into how to choose your leaders. Show Cathy you take the Church’s requirements seriously and show her the door out of leadership roles. She is not yet ready to lead anyone in the Church. The souls you lead are too precious to risk giving them the wrong impression.

Actually, some of the best testimony one can recieve regarding chastity and abortion can be someone who has made the mistake in the past. As a CCD teacher, I was at a large group (all high school grades and all classes) meeting that had a girl describe the time from when she found out she was pregnant until after she had had an abortion. Not only were hte girls crying, but the macho boys were doing their best to refrain from crying (and some failed).

 

[st_lucy]

Actually, some of the best testimony one can recieve regarding chastity and abortion can be someone who has made the mistake in the past. As a CCD teacher, I was at a large group (all high school grades and all classes) meeting that had a girl describe the time from when she found out she was pregnant until after she had had an abortion. Not only were hte girls crying, but the macho boys were doing their best to refrain from crying (and some failed).

I was going to say the same the speakers for the Pure love club, who are wonderful at spreading the word of Chasity, were once unchaste themselves. God works in mysterious ways to help us. He can use our ugliness to bring beauty in the world. I think that your friend should not refrain from speaking because she is not perfect which of us are. She has found the truth and that is worth talking about.

 

[lizaanne]

I would much rather hear from someone who has “been there done that, learned my lesson” than someone who was so virginally perfect all their lives it appears they have never even been tempted by sin. How in the world could a young person relate to that? Yes - it is a good role model, it’s great to say that you waited to have sex, but what about the person who wasn’t totally perfect? Did God “show them the door”? Or did He give them an opportunity to find grace and truth through their experience?

I think Cathy would be a wonderful person to speak about her experience to the kids. Given that she works on how to appropriately present her position and experience so the message gets across in such a way that it is a learning moment, and not just one that says “do as I say not as I do”.

Not everyone comes out of the womb with a full understanding and acceptance of the Catholic Church. She is growing in her Faith, and is on the way to becoming a good Catholic. Hiding her in the closet will not do her any good, nor will it allow her to share her conversion experience with those who might be inspired by it or moved to change their own lives.

Saying she would “do it all over again” - I’m sure that she does not mean the pre-marital sex, but the fact that it resulted in her children who have brought her to God. I would imagine the sex part, the children notwithstanding, is something she is not proud of.

Spend some more time with her and work with her on how she would speak to others about her experience. Tossing it to the curb would be a horrible loss to so many.

~Liza

 

[tequilamac]

I would much rather hear from someone who has “been there done that, learned my lesson” than someone who was so virginally perfect all their lives it appears they have never even been tempted by sin. How in the world could a young person relate to that? Yes - it is a good role model, it’s great to say that you waited to have sex, but what about the person who wasn’t totally perfect? Did God “show them the door”? Or did He give them an opportunity to find grace and truth through their experience?

I think Cathy would be a wonderful person to speak about her experience to the kids. Given that she works on how to appropriately present her position and experience so the message gets across in such a way that it is a learning moment, and not just one that says “do as I say not as I do”.

Not everyone comes out of the womb with a full understanding and acceptance of the Catholic Church. She is growing in her Faith, and is on the way to becoming a good Catholic. Hiding her in the closet will not do her any good, nor will it allow her to share her conversion experience with those who might be inspired by it or moved to change their own lives.

Saying she would “do it all over again” - I’m sure that she does not mean the pre-marital sex, but the fact that it resulted in her children who have brought her to God. I would imagine the sex part, the children notwithstanding, is something she is not proud of.

Spend some more time with her and work with her on how she would speak to others about her experience. Tossing it to the curb would be a horrible loss to so many.

~Liza

We are talking about a youth group here.

The fact is parents have a right for their children to receive the respect of having Catholic Youth Leaders, ones that have been baptised and confirmed. We are not forgetting that the full gifts of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God,including wisdom and knowledge, come through the Sacrament of Confirmation, are we? Or is the Sacrament of Confirmation merely a red tape bureaucratic requirement that is simply not necessary to properly teach children key issues? .

Now if as a Catholic you profess to believe this, why would you want your children in a non catholic youth group led by non catholics giving talks on chastity who have not been chaste?

Makes no sense. Yet that is what is happening here. Her wisdom and her knowledge, no matter how much she regrets her past and by the way which one of her children does she wish she had not had through her unchaste actions she regrets? This is confusion.

Furthermore, what is wrong with hearing about it from someone as you say was “so virginally perfect all their lives” unless you have completely given up on the idea that your children might have a vocation themselves. We celebrate virgins in our church. Our saints such as Teresa of Avila was a virgin. Is a chaste and celibate nun less use to you than a non catholic who had premarital sex? I guess so.

 

[ErichsGurl2]

Well well well. These things do happen. I would venture a couple of thoughts. You say that Cathy is a youth group leader, but she is in the process of converting.
Your occasion of the group was encouraging chastity. And Cathy is not a prime example of exercising chastity.
So- here is a hard thought. As a mother of children, I would prefer to have my children in a Catholic youth group led by catholics, not anglicans even if they are converting. And if they are learning about chastity I would prefer they learn from someone who has exercised it.
It sounds like, even though Cathy may have her heart ultimately in the right place, she may not be a good role model. If it were me, I would tell Cathy that youth group LEADERS need to be Catholics in good standing and when she has successfully completed RCIA you would be thrilled to have her join you.
A hard thing I know, but you must shoulder the responsibility for a s you say you did not put enough thought into how to choose your leaders. Show Cathy you take the Church’s requirements seriously and show her the door out of leadership roles. She is not yet ready to lead anyone in the Church. The souls you lead are too precious to risk giving them the wrong impression.

I absolutely disagree. -As a mother of two children who were born out of wedlock. God is forgiving and accepting, and she SHOULD be allowed to teach chastity to young people. One of the wonderful things about these groups is the fact that ‘we’ as adults, can communicate our mistakes to others so that they may learn from them (again, God making something evil turn into something good). Children aren’t mistakes though, all children are gifts from God, whether they were born out of wedlock or not. I think that she needs to concentrate on communicating that she was promiscuous, not the blessings God has given her. She has in essence, “been there, done that”. She knows what kind of situations to avoid and that can be useful to today’s youth, her children have nothing to do with the issue. I think that this is something she may be struggling with personally, not something that should be brought up among a youth group.

 

[tequilamac]

I absolutely disagree. -As a mother of two children who were born out of wedlock. God is forgiving and accepting, and she SHOULD be allowed to teach chastity to young people. One of the wonderful things about these groups is the fact that ‘we’ as adults, can communicate our mistakes to others so that they may learn from them (again, God making something evil turn into something good). Children aren’t mistakes though, all children are gifts from God, whether they were born out of wedlock or not. I think that she needs to concentrate on communicating that she was promiscuous, not the blessings God has given her. She has in essence, “been there, done that”. She knows what kind of situations to avoid and that can be useful to today’s youth, her children have nothing to do with the issue. I think that this is something she may be struggling with personally, not something that should be brought up among a youth group.

Do you think people of other religions should also be allowed to be lectors, EMHC’s, and deacons? If so, heaven help us all. This woman is not a Catholic. There is no reason why children in a Catholic Youth Group can not be treated with the same respect as any other mininstry in the Church. Would you want RCIA directed by presbyterians? Then how is a youth group less deserving of a Catholic leader.

Several people have objected to my stance. While yes, her “personal testimony” may be of use, she SHOULD NOT BE A CATHOLIC YOUTH LEADER BECAUSE>>>>>>SHE IS NOT CATHOLIC!

HELLO- Is this getting through to anyone here?

There are many people out there- homosexuals drug addicts, prostitutes, murderers, child molestors who have reformed and are not Catholic. Let’s bring them all in for personal testimony or life experience speeches, but do not put them in charge of a Catholic ministry until they CONVERT FIRST.

I know when I put my kids in Catholic Schools I want them to have Catholic teachers and principals, not buddhists, not baptist, not episcopalian, not mormon but Catholic. Same for a youth group. Otherwise it is rather self defeating don’t you think?

 

[st_lucy]

Do you think people of other religions should also be allowed to be lectors, EMHC’s, and deacons? If so, heaven help us all. This woman is not a Catholic. There is no reason why children in a Catholic Youth Group can not be treated with the same respect as any other mininstry in the Church. Would you want RCIA directed by presbyterians? Then how is a youth group less deserving of a Catholic leader.

Several people have objected to my stance. While yes, her “personal testimony” may be of use, she SHOULD NOT BE A CATHOLIC YOUTH LEADER BECAUSE>>>>>>SHE IS NOT CATHOLIC!

HELLO- Is this getting through to anyone here?

There are many people out there- homosexuals drug addicts, prostitutes, murderers, child molestors who have reformed and are not Catholic. Let’s bring them all in for personal testimony or life experience speeches, but do not put them in charge of a Catholic ministry until they CONVERT FIRST.

I know when I put my kids in Catholic Schools I want them to have Catholic teachers and principals, not buddhists, not baptist, not episcopalian, not mormon but Catholic. Same for a youth group. Otherwise it is rather self defeating don’t you think?

The Op stated

Aside from skits, Cathy’s role as one of the leaders is one of Support, mainly in food and beverage. Her would be testimony would have been the most time spent in front of the microphone. The teachings and “messages” are delivered by trained Catholics youth ministers such as myself and others

.

It doesnt sound like she would directly be teaching the children. What I think everyone is objecting to is your stance that since she was not practicing Chasity in the past she should not be teaching Chasity. Which is not beginning very Christian. Our past sins should not be something that stop one from preaching the Word of God. You mentioned St Theresa in a post but I think we should also remember St Augustin, who was also not very chaste but went on to teach the world the word of God.

 

[ErichsGurl2]

I participated in RCIA for over a year before my husband and I converted as catechumans and were married in the church. I practiced the faith all my life though I was not baptized until I was an adult, abstaining from eucharist of course. Just because she wasn’t baptized Catholic, does not mean that she isn’t practicing as one. Maybe this particlular parish is suffering of volunteers and she has the abiltiy to put in the time and effort to spend with the youth there. My husband for example, became a eucharistic minister the following Sunday mass after we had become fully accepted into the church. That is something some people pray about for years before they do, there are classes you must take in our parish, but where there is a need, there must be someone ready and able to step up as a good Catholic and perform certain tasks, even if the pre-requisites haven’t yet been met. I wouldn’t mind my children learning from her. AS LONG AS SHE IS PRACTICING NOW, and has made a committment to RCIA to complete the program.

 

[tequilamac]

The Op stated .

It doesnt sound like she would directly be teaching the children. What I think everyone is objecting to is your stance that since she was not practicing Chasity in the past she should not be teaching Chasity. Which is not beginning very Christian. Our past sins should not be something that stop one from preaching the Word of God. You mentioned St Theresa in a post but I think we should also remember St Augustin, who was also not very chaste but went on to teach the world the word of God.

uuummm. This is crazy. If she is not a leader, she should not be called a leader. That #1 is confusing to the teenagers.
If her role is in food and beverage dispensing, then her chastity or lack of it has no business being discussed here or there, does it?
If the speakers and messages are all delivered by trained Catholic youth leaders, what does her situation have to do with anything and why is the OP even writing about it?
Unless he intends to pretend to be her and giver testimony as his message?
See, this is the thing. If you want to teach Catholic teens something, don’t play round about games like this with all the manipulative confusing stuff. Speak clearly and you should say what you mean. Is she a leader? Yes and No. does she deliver the message on chastity? Yes and no. Is she Catholic? No.
How confusing for the kids can you get?
If you want to give kids personal testimony about chastity from someone who has not been chaste, look around the parish for Catholics who have children out of wedlock. We have plenty of them in every diocese. Why do you need an anglican for it? This whole thing is silly. Why confuse kids this way?

 

[ErichsGurl2]

uuummm. This is crazy. If she is not a leader, she should not be called a leader. That #1 is confusing to the teenagers.
If her role is in food and beverage dispensing, then her chastity or lack of it has no business being discussed here or there, does it?
If the speakers and messages are all delivered by trained Catholic youth leaders, what does her situation have to do with anything and why is the OP even writing about it?
Unless he intends to pretend to be her and giver testimony as his message?
See, this is the thing. If you want to teach Catholic teens something, don’t play round about games like this with all the manipulative confusing stuff. Speak clearly and you should say what you mean. Is she a leader? Yes and No. does she deliver the message on chastity? Yes and no. Is she Catholic? No.
How confusing for the kids can you get?
If you want to give kids personal testimony about chastity from someone who has not been chaste, look around the parish for Catholics who have children out of wedlock. We have plenty of them in every diocese. Why do you need an anglican for it? This whole thing is silly. Why confuse kids this way?

I agree with you on the fact that the OP is writing about something that is quite confusing. It doesn’t sound as if she’s a leader, it sounds as if she is just participating in the group. Like I said in my latter post, I think this is something that SHE is dealing with personally.

 

[tequilamac]

I agree with you on the fact that the OP is writing about something that is quite confusing. It doesn’t sound as if she’s a leader, it sounds as if she is just participating in the group. Like I said in my latter post, I think this is something that SHE is dealing with personally.

Exactly. And these are trained youth leaders? First rule of thumb when dealing with teenagers- say exactly wht you mean. Teenagers by virtue of being teenagers are confused and confusing enough already. They rely on their youth leaders to be direct, to the point, and simple. Otherwise, they will tune these guys out. Teens still want some adult security.
And if this woman is simply participating in the group, who cares what her past sex life is like? Wow.

 

[vern_humphrey]

So now Cathy feels ostracized, she was going to give her personal testimony, but she declined because she felt that she would be speaking about her children as a consequence of pre-marital sex, as an unwanted event, when the opposite is true for her. They are her life. On top of that, she proclaims if she had to do it all over again she would not change a thing, because it made her the person she is today.

I think you should point out that while the Church does not ostracize children born out of wedlock, such children pay a heavy price in society.

Out-of-wedlock and single parent children are more likely to drop out of school, take drugs, commit crimes and perpetuate the cycle of poverty than children born into wedlock and raised by both parents.

Now there are exceptions – and Cathy is obviously one. But she should not encourage others in that direction.

 

[ErichsGurl2]

I think you should point out that while the Church does not ostracize children born out of wedlock, such children pay a heavy price in society.

Out-of-wedlock and single parent children are more likely to drop out of school, take drugs, commit crimes and perpetuate the cycle of poverty than children born into wedlock and raised by both parents.

Now there are exceptions – and Cathy is obviously one. But she should not encourage others in that direction.

I don’t think she is speaking to encourage people to make the same mistakes as she has or even say that it is acceptable, I think her (name removed by moderator)ut on the topic of chastity may be helpful. There may be youths feeling or going through some of the same things she has in the past. Maybe from her experiences she can offer advice on the “best” option that follows Catholic belief and faith. But, as for this thread, it looks a bit troll-ish to me.