If priestly celibacy is not a dogma, why can't it be changed?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SAVINGRACE
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

SAVINGRACE

Guest
Friends, Romans, Countrymen/women,

I am reeling at the moment!!! :stretcher:

Just found out that priestly celibacy is not Dogma. It is (t)radition which can be discussed and changed if agreed upon. The same way many traditions (small t) have been changed over the centuries.

Sorry, I’m a 3yo Catholic, must have skipped this part at RCIA or my mind was wandering.

Why isn’t it Dogma?
 
Here is a link from the Catholic Encyclopedia about Dogma

newadvent.org/cathen/05089a.htm

In my thinking, and I could very well be wrong, dogma is a revealed truth, and truth can not change. Maybe priest have never been allowed to marry and only if already married could become priest later. I don’t know, 🤷 but if in the past priest were allowed to marry it would be hard now to define it as a truth. That would mean in the past they were practicing an untruth. That is my understanding as to why it is a discipline and not dogma. A discipline is a good practice, but not necessary. Truth would always be necessary.
 
Dogma and doctrine are truths which has been revealed to us by God. Dogma is doctrine which the Church says must be believed.

Priestly celibacy is not truth revealed to us by God. God did not say, “You cannot be a priest if you have sex.”

Peter was the first Pope. He was married. Many Eastern Catholic priests are married and some priests from the Anglican Church who have come into the Catholic Church are married.

-Tim-
 
As has been mentioned, God did not reveal that priests must be celibate (neither did He reveal they must be married).

But He did reveal that celibacy is better, so the Church in the West has chosen to only ordain as priests those who have chosen this better way. The Church universally has chosen to only ordain men as bishops who have chosen this better way.
 
I’d just like to add, The Church teaches us a hierarchy of truths. To appreciate what dogma is we should start with the reality – when a dogma is declared the Truth must be believed and is necessary for our salvation.

When we examine Priestly Celibacy it has been revealed it is commended by Jesus himself. Also, Pope Paul VI clearly explains (in Presbyterorum Ordinis) Ecclesiastical Celibacy “is not demanded by the very nature of the priesthood observe celibacy.” This is also helpful to us in understand why this is not a dogma.
  1. (Celibacy is to be embraced and esteemed as a gift). Perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven, commended by Christ the Lord and through the course of time as well as in our own days freely accepted and observed in a praiseworthy manner by many of the faithful, is held by the Church to be of great value in a special manner for the priestly life. It is at the same time a sign and a stimulus for pastoral charity and a special source of spiritual fecundity in the world. Indeed, as is apparent from the practice of the early Church and from the traditions of the Eastern Churches. where, besides those who with all the bishops, by a gift of grace, choose to it is not demanded by the very nature of the priesthood observe celibacy, there are also married priests of highest merit. This holy synod, while it commends ecclesiastical celibacy, in no way intends to alter that different discipline which legitimately flourishes in the Eastern Churches. It permanently exhorts all those who have received the priesthood and marriage to persevere in their holy vocation so that they may fully and generously continue to expend themselves for the sake of the flock commended to them.
Click to expand...
www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651207_presbyterorum-ordinis_en.html
Click to expand...
This in no way means Priestly Celibacy is just a man-made law with questionable value. We Catholics of the Latin Rite understand this as a something Jesus himself commended and a very special gift in the life of the Church. We should appreciate this gift.
 
SAVINGRACE said:
Friends, Romans, Countrymen/women,

I am reeling at the moment!!! :stretcher:

Just found out that priestly celibacy is not Dogma. It is (t)radition which can be discussed and changed if agreed upon. The same way many traditions (small t) have been changed over the centuries.

Sorry, I’m a 3yo Catholic, must have skipped this part at RCIA or my mind was wandering.

Why isn’t it Dogma?
Click to expand...
Not only isn’t it Dogma, its arguably not the historical norm. There was no celibacy requirements for about the first 1,000 years of Church history. Even after that, there have almost always been some married priests for various reasons. Even today there are hundreds (if not more) married Roman Catholic priests.
 
TMC said:
Not only isn’t it Dogma, its arguably not the historical norm. There was no celibacy requirements for about the first 1,000 years of Church history. Even after that, there have almost always been some married priests for various reasons. Even today there are hundreds (if not more) married Roman Catholic priests.
Click to expand...
Not entirely true. The biblical and historical truth is that Paul did encourage celibacy. While the very Early Church had married priests and bishops, it also had celibate priests and bishops, and deacons. It was only after the first millennium that the Church decided to make celibacy a normal requirement for priests in the Latin Church, but as others have noted, it has never been dogma, but rather only a discipline that can be changed.
 
TMC said:
Not only isn’t it Dogma, its arguably not the historical norm. There was no celibacy requirements for about the first 1,000 years of Church history. Even after that, there have almost always been some married priests for various reasons. Even today there are hundreds (if not more) married Roman Catholic priests.
Click to expand...
While this may be true (it’s debatable) concerning celibacy (ie unmarried priests), continence being required of even married priests goes back much, much farther.
 
SAVINGRACE said:
Friends, Romans, Countrymen/women,

I am reeling at the moment!!! :stretcher:

Just found out that priestly celibacy is not Dogma. It is (t)radition which can be discussed and changed if agreed upon. The same way many traditions (small t) have been changed over the centuries.

Sorry, I’m a 3yo Catholic, must have skipped this part at RCIA or my mind was wandering.

Why isn’t it Dogma?
Click to expand...
No it is not dogma.
Curious why that would make you reel tho.

Much of it is practical in nature. We ask much of our priests…obedience…to be sent to hinterlands or wherever needed. That’s not compatible with what we expect of men with families. How can a man be a good dad to his kids when he’s never there for them…I know for a fact my priest, given all he does, would not have time to be a good husband or dad…if he had a wife, she would be a very unhappy lady indeed, having to raise kids all by herself. In poverty no less.
It would be decidedly unfair to all concerned, and certainly not consistent with the catholic idea of family. So it makes alot of common sense for men to choose one or the other.
So be careful what you wish for.
 
MacQ said:
No it is not dogma.
Curious why that would make you reel tho.

Much of it is practical in nature. We ask much of our priests…obedience…to be sent to hinterlands or wherever needed. That’s not compatible with what we expect of men with families. How can a man be a good dad to his kids when he’s never there for them…I know for a fact my priest, given all he does, would not have time to be a good husband or dad…if he had a wife, she would be a very unhappy lady indeed, having to raise kids all by herself. In poverty no less.
It would be decidedly unfair to all concerned, and certainly not consistent with the catholic idea of family. So it makes alot of common sense for men to choose one or the other.
So be careful what you wish for.
Click to expand...
Countless Orthodox and Eastern Catholic priests have managed to be good pastors, good husbands, and good fathers.
 
I’m very grateful to be a Western Roman Catholic and have the witness of so many devoted priests who mirror Our Lord’s perfect chastity, giving up this worldly good for the sake of the Kingdom, in imitation of the Master.

He is our High Priest and King; how fitting that His priests imitate His total immolation of self for souls.

No, celibacy is not some dispensable practice that can be discarded because it is not a doctrine. It is a venerable tradition of our Church, and as recent Popes have reiterated, the issue of ever changing this discipline in the West is closed.
 
tominrichmondva said:
I’m very grateful to be a Western Roman Catholic and have the witness of so many devoted priests who mirror Our Lord’s perfect chastity, giving up this worldly good for the sake of the Kingdom, in imitation of the Master.

He is our High Priest and King; how fitting that His priests imitate His total immolation of self for souls.

No, celibacy is not some dispensable practice that can be discarded because it is not a doctrine. It is a venerable tradition of our Church, and as recent Popes have reiterated, the issue of ever changing this discipline in the West is closed.
Click to expand...
I don’t think you can say that the issue of ever changing this discipline in the West is closed. Church discipline, by its very nature, can be changed.
 
I’ve always heard it is better for priests to remain celibate because they can devote themselves fully to Jesus and His church without other distractions. Isn’t the congregation a priests family as such ? They have a duty to guide and teach
 
The priest is celibate because Christ was celibate. The bride is the Church, Christ is the bridegroom. Since the priest is in the person of Christ, it is thus appropriate and fitting Church discipline that he be celibate. So this is not a discipline that will ever be simply discarded. Eastern rite bishops must be celibate. Non-celibate priests have never been the ideal, and never will be.
 
FrStevenJones said:
The priest is celibate because Christ was celibate. The bride is the Church, Christ is the bridegroom. Since the priest is in the person of Christ, it is thus appropriate and fitting Church discipline that he be celibate. So this is not a discipline that will ever be simply discarded. Eastern rite bishops must be celibate. Non-celibate priests have never been the ideal, and never will be.
Click to expand...
Traditionally in the Oriental and Eastern Churches, there were two types of clergy: celibate clergy, who were monastics, and married clergy who were essentially village priests. Bishops were always chosen from among the ranks of the monastics. The very idea of secular celibate clergy in the Oriental and Eastern Churches is itself a 2nd Millennium latinization, and one that even affects some of the Orthodox.
 
FrStevenJones said:
The priest is celibate because Christ was celibate. The bride is the Church, Christ is the bridegroom. Since the priest is in the person of Christ, it is thus appropriate and fitting Church discipline that he be celibate. So this is not a discipline that will ever be simply discarded. Eastern rite bishops must be celibate. Non-celibate priests have never been the ideal, and never will be.
Click to expand...
The Eastern Churches would say, the MONK is celibate because Christ was celibate. The bride is the Church, Christ is the bridegroom. Since the monk is in the person of Christ, it is thus appropriate and fitting Church discipline that he be celibate monks, if married and a widower, enrolled as a monk after his children are grown. So this is not a discipline that will ever be simply discarded. Eastern bishops must be celibate. Both married and celibate priests have the calling to serve their respective communities. Celibate monk priests within their monastic communities of brothers; or hermits with their direct calling to God, if priest to offer themselves in sacrifice along with the Eucharist; if married and priest, to offer his children his fatherhood, both biological and spiritual, to the Lord in Eucharist.

There is no competition between them, each have their own calling, all complementary to the Body of Christ.
 
RyanBlack said:
Countless Orthodox and Eastern Catholic priests have managed to be good pastors, good husbands, and good fathers.
Click to expand...
This discipline seems to have developed in the West after the Schism and before the partial reunification. I wonder what the differences in conditions were?
 
St_Francis said:
This discipline seems to have developed in the West after the Schism and before the partial reunification. I wonder what the differences in conditions were?
Click to expand...
Celibacy was practiced in some dioceses in the West, but wasn’t accepted everywhere even in the Latin Church until later. Apparently there were some handing off their offices, including church goods and money to their children, instead of entrusting them to the Church.
 
It’s not dogma because priestly celibacy is not a divinely revealed Truth.

Dogma is like the Resurrection, Ascension, etc.

Throughout the Church’s history we have always had both married and celibate priests. However, the Church certainly has the authority to require celibacy of priests.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top