If priestly celibacy is not a dogma, why can't it be changed?

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Before I got married I had the freedom to study the Scriptures and related books almost every night - sometimes till very late. Couldn’ t get enough. Now married with kids the reality is different. I feel to be a father to kids is almost like a “ministry” on its own.
It also maybe depends on stability of the family how much time a dad have available.
Maybe it would be acceptable to allow dads with grown-up kids to become priests.
They should also bring a real-world experience to the priesthood. But maybe
a person who choose lifelong celibacy for the sake of Christ should somehow have a higher “rank” in the church.
 
otjm #213
The Church has managed for 2000 years to have both a married and a celibate clergy
That repeated fallacy can no longer be excused by ignorance, as it is now known that Trullo marks the break in the seventh century.

The reality is now known that priestly continence is an Apostolic Norm from the beginning as continence was required for priest and bishop as several scholarly studies now attest. Even Pope Pius XI wrote that the disciplinary canons of the Council of Elvira in 305 were the “first written traces” of the “Law of Ecclesiastical Celibacy,” and "presuppose a still earlier unwritten practice. " (AdCatholici Sacerdotii , 43, 1935).

Priestly Celibacy and Its Roots in Christ … Interview with Fr McGovern
National Catholic REGISTER, May 19-25, 2002

"Indeed, John Paul II points out in his 1979 Holy Thursday Letter to Priests that celibacy is so closely linked to the language of the Gospel that it refers back to the teaching of Christ and to apostolic tradition.”
 
That repeated fallacy can no longer be excused by ignorance, as it is now known that Trullo marks the break in the seventh century.

The reality is now known that priestly continence is an Apostolic Norm from the beginning as continence was required for priest and bishop as several scholarly studies now attest. Even Pope Pius XI wrote that the disciplinary canons of the Council of Elvira in 305 were the “first written traces” of the “Law of Ecclesiastical Celibacy,” and "presuppose a still earlier unwritten practice. " (AdCatholici Sacerdotii , 43, 1935).

Priestly Celibacy and Its Roots in Christ … Interview with Fr McGovern
National Catholic REGISTER, May 19-25, 2002

"Indeed, John Paul II points out in his 1979 Holy Thursday Letter to Priests that celibacy is so closely linked to the language of the Gospel that it refers back to the teaching of Christ and to apostolic tradition.”
You are losing credibility quickly here. The weight of the historical evidence is against your first comment; and your citations do not show what you purport them to say. Enough said.
 
“Interestingly, following the splendid historical research already provided by Cochini, Stickler and others, Fr McGovern shows that from the most ancient times those ordained were not allowed to marry subsequently, while those already married had to live as brother and sister upon the reception of Holy Orders.”
Fr Tom Norris lectures at St Patricks College, Maynooth.
This review first appeared in the 15 April 1999 issue of Irish Catholic.
christendom-awake.org/pages/mcgovern/reviews.html

See:
Alfons M. Stickler, The Case for Clerical Celibacy: Its Historical Development and Theological Foundations, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1995

All sound Catholic scholarship, as quoted, and backed up by true Catholic scholars like Fr. George William Rutler, Henri Cardinal de Lubac, Father Thomas McGovern of Opus Dei, and Jean Cardinal Daniélou has irrevocably shown celibacy to be the Apostolic norm and mandated,

Thus the historical record shows that the Apostolic Norm of priestly celibacy is the reality in both East and West up to the unilateral break at Trullo.
 
That repeated fallacy can no longer be excused by ignorance, as it is now known that Trullo marks the break in the seventh century.

The reality is now known that priestly continence is an Apostolic Norm from the beginning as continence was required for priest and bishop as several scholarly studies now attest. Even Pope Pius XI wrote that the disciplinary canons of the Council of Elvira in 305 were the “first written traces” of the “Law of Ecclesiastical Celibacy,” and "presuppose a still earlier unwritten practice. " (AdCatholici Sacerdotii , 43, 1935).

Priestly Celibacy and Its Roots in Christ … Interview with Fr McGovern
National Catholic REGISTER, May 19-25, 2002

"Indeed, John Paul II points out in his 1979 Holy Thursday Letter to Priests that celibacy is so closely linked to the language of the Gospel that it refers back to the teaching of Christ and to apostolic tradition.”
If the Council of Elvira presupposes a prior practice, then logic would dictate that Trullo also presupposes a prior practice. You seem to believe that the Eastern Church just dreamed this up in the 7th century. What occurred at Trullo indicates that this was a long-standing point of contention between East and West.
 
No reputable refutation of the Apostolic Norm of priestly celibacy can be substantiated after the illustrious scholarly works cited and quoted, including the following detail from Mother Angelica’s Eternal Word Television Network by the scholarly Fr John Echert of EWTN, Nov 10, 2003:
“Fr Cochini examines the question of when the tradition of priestly celibacy began in the Latin Church, and he is able to trace it back to its origins with the apostles. He examines evidence about the marital status of every known bishop, priest or deacon of the period and gives an exhaustive list of married clerics from apostolic times until the end of the seventh century, a list that includes not only the Western Church, but the East and also the Nestorian, Novatian and Pelagian Church. Then Cochini examines the relevant Church documents for the same period, including council and synod documents, papal letters, ecclesial and even secular legislation as it relates to the problem. He also provides a survey of scholarly literature on the topic. This is the definitive scholarly statement on the discipline of priestly celibacy in the Church East and West.”
You quote from the jacket of the book itself. This book defines itself as the definitive authority, therefore it must be. That’s rather circular.

Since I have not read this book, perhaps you can answer a question for me. What new evidence does this book present, that was not previously known, that would lead to the reversal of the statement from Vatican II on married priests:
Perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven, commended by Christ the Lord and through the course of time as well as in our own days freely accepted and observed in a praiseworthy manner by many of the faithful, is held by the Church to be of great value in a special manner for the priestly life. It is at the same time a sign and a stimulus for pastoral charity and a special source of spiritual fecundity in the world. Indeed, it is not demanded by the very nature of the priesthood, as is apparent from the practice of the early Church and from the traditions of the Eastern Churches, where, besides those who with all the bishops, by a gift of grace, choose to observe celibacy, there are also married priests of highest merit. This holy synod, while it commends ecclesiastical celibacy, in no way intends to alter that different discipline which legitimately flourishes in the Eastern Churches. It permanently exhorts all those who have received the priesthood and marriage to persevere in their holy vocation so that they may fully and generously continue to expend themselves for the sake of the flock commended to them.

Please don’t continue to cut and past the same quotes from the jacket and forward of the book. I’m looking for actual new evidence. Presbyterorum Ordinis, 16
Also, can you share how the book refutes the testimony of Clement of Alexandria (†215), who states:
All the same, the Church fully receives the husband of one wife whether he be presbyter, deacon or layman, supposing always that he uses his marriage blamelessly, and such a one shall be saved in the begetting of children.
 
babochka #218
If the Council of Elvira presupposes a prior practice, then logic would dictate that Trullo also presupposes a prior practice. You seem to believe that the Eastern Church just dreamed this up in the 7th century. What occurred at Trullo indicates that this was a long-standing point of contention between East and West.
Trullo was the culmination of the growing dissent which developed in the East after centuries of observing the Apostolic Norm.

Hugh Ballantyne, in The origin of priestly celibacy, Homiletic and Pastoral Review, 53 (7), April 2003, 52 explains that
When a married Greek priest travels in Latin territory with his wife, he must obey the local law and abstain from sex with his wife(4).
The bishops of the Council in Trullo depend upon a misinterpretation of earlier documentation, some of which was falsified or even forged. Baronius (c. 1600) frankly accuses the bishops at Trullo of lying, in their alteration of earlier Latin canons(5). Nonetheless the Trullan canons, and the Trullan misunderstanding of the antecedent historical period, became part of Greek Orthodox consciousness. In this way the Apostolic norm of priestly celibacy was modified in the east.
(4) The New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 3 p371b-c, sv. “Celibacy, History of”].
(5) Cited by Stickler, Chapter III note 16]

Fr. George William Rutler, in an article entitled *A Consistent theology of clerical celibacy *(Homiletic & Pastoral Review, Feb. 1989), notes that “Virginity and celibacy were not synonymous in the original ecclesiastical institution of celibacy. Those clerics whose marriages were recognized by the Church, and they were many, were expected to abstain from conjugal union after ordination. The new archeology shows that this was the case for all the Eastern Churches in the earliest centuries, and in a mitigated form later.”
#219
You quote from the jacket of the book itself. This book defines itself as the definitive authority, therefore it must be. That’s rather circular.
The comment quoted by Fr Echert is by none other than Henri Cardinal de Lubac and shows the depth of the research to get the facts.

Fr Echert concludes after quoting from the Sacred Scripture:
“So we see that the practice of the Latin Church with regards to celibacy is in accord with the teaching and example of our Lord and the Twelve Apostles.”
 
👍
The priest is celibate because Christ was celibate. The bride is the Church, Christ is the bridegroom. Since the priest is in the person of Christ, it is thus appropriate and fitting Church discipline that he be celibate. So this is not a discipline that will ever be simply discarded. Eastern rite bishops must be celibate. Non-celibate priests have never been the ideal, and never will be.
 
Trullo was the culmination of the growing dissent which developed in the East after centuries of observing the Apostolic Norm.

Hugh Ballantyne, in The origin of priestly celibacy, Homiletic and Pastoral Review, 53 (7), April 2003, 52 explains that
When a married Greek priest travels in Latin territory with his wife, he must obey the local law and abstain from sex with his wife(4).
The bishops of the Council in Trullo depend upon a misinterpretation of earlier documentation, some of which was falsified or even forged. Baronius (c. 1600) frankly accuses the bishops at Trullo of lying, in their alteration of earlier Latin canons(5). Nonetheless the Trullan canons, and the Trullan misunderstanding of the antecedent historical period, became part of Greek Orthodox consciousness. In this way the Apostolic norm of priestly celibacy was modified in the east.
(4) The New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 3 p371b-c, sv. “Celibacy, History of”].
(5) Cited by Stickler, Chapter III note 16]

Fr. George William Rutler, in an article entitled *A Consistent theology of clerical celibacy *(Homiletic & Pastoral Review, Feb. 1989), notes that “Virginity and celibacy were not synonymous in the original ecclesiastical institution of celibacy. Those clerics whose marriages were recognized by the Church, and they were many, were expected to abstain from conjugal union after ordination. The new archeology shows that this was the case for all the Eastern Churches in the earliest centuries, and in a mitigated form later.”
The comment quoted by Fr Echert is by none other than Henri Cardinal de Lubac and shows the depth of the research to get the facts.

Fr Echert concludes after quoting from the Sacred Scripture:
“So we see that the practice of the Latin Church with regards to celibacy is in accord with the teaching and example of our Lord and the Twelve Apostles.”
So basically, the only “evidence” you have are two authors who are cited repeatedly - who, however authoritative they are, are only two out of 2000 years of history, and multiple Churches with varying practices, and different histories. Besides, you’ve only addressed the Latins and Greeks, repeatedly.
 
So basically, the only “evidence” you have are two authors who are cited repeatedly - who, however authoritative they are, are only two out of 2000 years of history, and multiple Churches with varying practices, and different histories. Besides, you’ve only addressed the Latins and Greeks, repeatedly.
Yes, just repeating the claim that all married clerics were expected to be continent after ordination until Trullo makes absolutely no sense. How does that explain the practice of the Syriacs, the Copts, the Ethiopians, the St. Thomas Christians, etc., all of whom do not adhere to Trullo?
 
Sorry, I disagree. We have a priest who is married with 2 kids at our parish. He converted from the Episcopal Church. There is very much a place for priests like this in the Catholic Church, especially deacons becoming priest. Those families already know what the sacrifices are. Look at all these parents who travel all the time, barely spending time with their family. What about doctors or military people gone for years at a time.

Men who are already married that become priest would have a greater understanding of married life raising children than non-married priest and that would be a huge benefit in our parishes. No matter how knowledgeable a priest is he can simply not fully understand sexual, marital, or family issues as well as most people who live through those things on a daily bases.
 
Men who are already married that become priest would have a greater understanding of married life raising children than non-married priest and that would be a huge benefit in our parishes. No matter how knowledgeable a priest is he can simply not fully understand sexual, marital, or family issues as well as most people who live through those things on a daily bases.
Right, nor should he be expected to. There is certainly a prominent place for celibate clergy, but it’s Traditionally (regarding all the Churches; Greek, Latin, Syriac, Copt, Malankara, Armenian, Ethiopian, etc) anomaly without a community structure in place (Canons, Monastics, Society, etc.).
 
SyroMalankara #222
So basically, the only “evidence” you have are two authors who are cited repeatedly
The gross failure to acknowledge the fact that giants in the faith have produced definitive historical studies in Early Church Tradition which include Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy, by Fr. Christian Cochini, S.J.(Ignatius, San Francisco, 1990); The Case for Clerical Celibacy, by Alfons Maria Cardinal Stickler (Ignatius, San Francisco, 1995); Celibacy in the Early Church, by Fr. Stefan Heid, (Ignatius, San Francisco, 2000) which have been accepted, lauded and quoted by other stalwarts who include Fr. George William Rutler, Henri Cardinal de Lubac, Father Thomas McGovern of Opus Dei, Jean Cardinal Daniélou, and Fr John Echert who has a Licentiate in Sacred Scripture, explains the woeful state of the doubters.

From Fathers Rumble and Carty:
“On June 26, 1960, two years before the Vatican Council, Pope [Saint] John XXIII told the Synod of the Diocese of Rome that it was sheer folly to imagine that the Catholic Church might possibly abandon what has for centuries upon centuries been one of the noblest glories of her priesthood; and he said that the heroic challenge of the ecclesiastical law of celibacy would ever be maintained.

“On June 24, 1967, Pope Paul VI [to be beatified in October 2014] issued an Encyclical on “The Celibacy of the Priesthood,” in which he reaffirmed the law, declaring its binding force for all ordained to the priesthood. He said that the reasons for retaining the law far outweighed any in favour of abolishing it, and that the world needs more than ever today this witness to the highest and most sacred spiritual values. The priest, so closely associated with Christ at the altar, reflects our Lord’s own supreme self-giving to the glorification of His heavenly Father and to the salvation of souls. The Catholic faithful in turn, moved to great reverence for their priests, realise that in urging them to a life of self-denial, they are not urging them to what in a special way they have not undertaken in their own lives. Moreover, unmarried priests can work more effectively wherever they may be sent and however difficult the circumstances, expending themselves without imposing on wife and children the inconveniences and often hardships their vocation frequently involves.”
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=Celibacy+of+priesthood&db=5
 
The gross failure to acknowledge the fact that giants in the faith have produced definitive historical studies in Early Church Tradition which include Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy, by Fr. Christian Cochini, S.J.(Ignatius, San Francisco, 1990); The Case for Clerical Celibacy, by Alfons Maria Cardinal Stickler (Ignatius, San Francisco, 1995); Celibacy in the Early Church, by Fr. Stefan Heid, (Ignatius, San Francisco, 2000) which have been accepted, lauded and quoted by other stalwarts who include Fr. George William Rutler, Henri Cardinal de Lubac, Father Thomas McGovern of Opus Dei, Jean Cardinal Daniélou, and Fr John Echert who has a Licentiate in Sacred Scripture, explains the woeful state of the doubters.
Being quoted repeated by others, all of the Latin Church, and with a certain bias does not constitute legitimacy, nor does pretending that the incident where Cholij, the author himself, renounced his earlier hypothesis, didn’t happen. Now, if as you state, Cholij is a “giant” who “produced definite historical studies”, and he has already acknowledged he was in error - why can’t you?
From Fathers Rumble and Carty:
“On June 26, 1960, two years before the Vatican Council, Pope [Saint] John XXIII told the Synod of the Diocese of Rome that it was sheer folly to imagine that the Catholic Church might possibly abandon what has for centuries upon centuries been one of the noblest glories of her priesthood; and he said that the heroic challenge of the ecclesiastical law of celibacy would ever be maintained.
What about it? None of the Eastern Catholics here think the Church should “abandon what has for centuries upon centuries been one of the noblest glories of her priesthood” - since we already recognize the celibate priesthood. When will you reciprocate and recognize the glories of the entire Holy Church’s priesthood, and not just one segment, while abandoning nothing?
“On June 24, 1967, Pope Paul VI [to be beatified in October 2014] issued an Encyclical on “The Celibacy of the Priesthood,” in which he reaffirmed the law, declaring its binding force for all ordained to the priesthood. He said that the reasons for retaining the law far outweighed any in favour of abolishing it, and that the world needs more than ever today this witness to the highest and most sacred spiritual values. The priest, so closely associated with Christ at the altar, reflects our Lord’s own supreme self-giving to the glorification of His heavenly Father and to the salvation of souls. The Catholic faithful in turn, moved to great reverence for their priests, realise that in urging them to a life of self-denial, they are not urging them to what in a special way they have not undertaken in their own lives. Moreover, unmarried priests can work more effectively wherever they may be sent and however difficult the circumstances, expending themselves without imposing on wife and children the inconveniences and often hardships their vocation frequently involves.”
Wonderful! Now who is this directed to again? No one who is responding to you here is in favor of abandoning the Latin practice, only practicing it the proper way, as it has always been.

**The mandatory norms of continence for Byzantine married priests following the Trullan Synod were generally patterned after the norms that then existed for married lay people: one to three days of ‘eucharistic’ continence as well as continence during the periods of fasting. Reception of communion was not frequent among the faithful during the Middle Ages; the continence rule also discouraged attempts by married priests to celebrate the Eucharist daily. Non-monastic priests were expected to be married. From the eleventh century norms appear which prohibit the ordination to the parochial ministry of an unmarried man. Those celibates who worked closely with the bishop would be unmarried priests who had taken the monastic profession. Thus arose, in later Russia, the distinction between the ‘black’-(monastic) clergy and the ‘white’ (parochial) clergy. Those married clergy who became widowers were compelled to leave their ministry and enter a monastery. The Synod of Moscow (1666-1667) abrogated this requirement, at the same time authorizing remarriage with reduction to the state of a minor cleric. Bishops, in keeping with the spirit, if not the letter, of Trullan legislation, were chosen from amongst monastic candidates, although, exceptionally, a celibate layman would be ordained after making monastic profession.

More research is needed to understand properly the developments in the non-Chalcedonian Churches under Islamic rule. It is reasonable to assume, however, that whilst under Byzantine rule imperial legislation was required to be observed. By the High Middle Ages a tradition had developed in the Coptic Church of ordaining children to the diaconate. They were permitted to marry after reaching puberty. The Nestorians, who were outside the Empire, continued from the fifth century to have a married clergy not bound to strict continence. All Orthodox Churches today have a married clergy. - Roman Cholij**

Again, more evidence, from per-eminent “giants in the faith” that your conclusion is in error and even the Entirety of the Eastern Churches practice hasn’t been recognized by the study itself.
 
No one has held that the Church does not now allow married priests among married clergy converting from other sects, but the historical record shows that the Apostolic Norm of priestly celibacy is the reality in both East and West up to the unilateral break at Trullo.
No, it’s not been the reality in the Byzantine nor Alexandrian East - and the Syriacs are divided on the issue by which ethnic/regional churches.

The Byzantine churches have, without break, retained married men as priests since the dawn of the church, while affirming that celibacy is the higher calling. Same for the Alexandrian ones.

It’s only in the US, and only because Rome acceded to the requests of the Roman Church bishops of the US, that the Byzantine Rite Churches in the US have almost no married clergy. But the Ukrainian Church has had married priests in Canada the whole time.

Also note: Most of the celibate clergy in the Byzantine Rite outside the US are monastics. This is even more true amongst the Eastern Orthodox. Even when assigned as pastors, most celibate Orthodox clerics are monastics. The Tradition is that a priest who is widowed remains a widower in the parish only until his children are grown, and then goes off to the monastery.
 
In any case of a busy, on-call type profession, it is the family that suffers. Does that fact that some professions have an impaired family life mean that we should extend it to priests? Do we want to promote more of that?
Many Roman Deacons are working full time day jobs, and putting in another 20+ hours a week at the parish in addition. (My dad was one such deacon. As were his classmates in the deacon training program. Only one of the 7 wasn’t working a full time job plus putting in parish time - but he was the deacon and the parish administrative assistant - his day job was at the parish, and he was able to combine his day-job time and ministerial time into one job.)
 
SyroMalankara #227
Now, if as you state, Cholij is a “giant” who “produced definite historical studies”, and he has already acknowledged he was in error - why can’t you?
No – Cholij was not included there as a “giant” with the others, as attention to post #226 makes clear. Why the falsification?
Again, more evidence, from per-eminent “giants in the faith” that your conclusion is in error and even the Entirety of the Eastern Churches practice hasn’t been recognized by the study itself.
Quote:
“The mandatory norms of continence for Byzantine married priests following the Trullan Synod were generally patterned after the norms that then existed for married lay people”
“By the High Middle Ages a tradition had developed in the Coptic Church of ordaining children to the diaconate.”
Roman Cholij
Thus from the quotes given nothing has been substantiated, once again, to show that the mandated Apostolic Norm of priestly continence from the beginning was abrogated before the unilateral abrogation at Trullo. It cannot be substantiated.
 
Thus from the quotes given nothing has been substantiated, once again, to show that the mandated Apostolic Norm of priestly continence from the beginning was abrogated before the unilateral abrogation at Trullo. It cannot be substantiated.
Yet you have only provided quotes from the jacket and forward of the book in question, and have not answered my direct question: What new evidence was presented in this research that was not previously known, particularly at the time of the Second Vatican Council. What new information is so compelling that makes this research and the conclusions of these researchers irrefutable?
 
babochka #231
What new evidence was presented in this research that was not previously known, particularly at the time of the Second Vatican Council. What new information is so compelling that makes this research and the conclusions of these researchers irrefutable?
While there was always a belief by some like Gustav Bickell (1838-1917) that clerical celibacy was of apostolic origins and intrinsically related to ministry, all of these scholarly works were unknown at the time of Vatican II which was announced by Pope Saint John XXIII on January 25, 1959, and actually formally opened under the pontificate of Pope Saint John XXIII on 11 October 1962 and closed under Pope Paul VI on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception in 1965.

These historical treateses were published between 1988 and 2000, thus it is no way surprising that the facts as known now were not widely known at the time of Vatican II. But even in 1935, Pope Pius XI could write that the disciplinary canons of the Council of Elvira in 305 were the “first written traces” of the “Law of Ecclesiastical Celibacy,” and "presuppose a still earlier unwritten practice. " (Ad Catholici Sacerdotii , 43, 1935).

These studies substantiate what was believed by some, and acknowledged by Pope Pius XI.
 
What about studies that go the other way? Do you base all dogma and doctrine on studies of a time or base it on the constant teaching, actions, faith, and Traditions of the Church universal?

In other words, are you saying the Holy Spirit allowed VC2 to omit, or even further - err - on an Apostolic Truth?
 
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