If "pro-choicers" are really so "pro-choice" then why are they against the choice to be pro-life?

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It certainly can be proven. We use math proofs to prove 2+2=4. We use moral proofs for moral issues.
Actually, what you state is an opinion not a fact. If you’re actually interested in Mathematical proofs and how this type of proof does not necessarily carry over to “moral” and socialogical proofs I suggest you read the following article: Proof as a practice of mathematical pursuit in a cultural, socio-political and intellectual context from the 2008 article in the ZDM (the International Journal of Mathematics Education)(there are some others I could suggest, but I think this one’s a pretty good one and fairly readable)
It is difficult enough to prove mathematical proofs without throwing issues which use for a proof "this is true because the Magesterium of the Catholic Church says so. I get it fix, You believe that what the Catholic Church says is truth is truth for each and every person in the world - but not everyone subscribes to that “truth”. Catholicism is something which you have “faith” in - and you have “faith” that what the Catholic Church says or the Pope for that matter says is the “truth” - faith by definition is “belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence”=- by it’s own definition it is something that can not be PROVEN. Why do you believe that what the Pope says is infalible? Because they have faith that God would not allow him to say something contrary to His desire.

God Bless
Rye
 
Actually, what you state is an opinion not a fact. If you’re actually interested in Mathematical proofs and how this type of proof does not necessarily carry over to “moral” and socialogical proofs I suggest you read the following article: Proof as a practice of mathematical pursuit in a cultural, socio-political and intellectual context from the 2008 article in the ZDM (the International Journal of Mathematics Education)(there are some others I could suggest, but I think this one’s a pretty good one and fairly readable)
It is difficult enough to prove mathematical proofs without throwing issues which use for a proof "this is true because the Magesterium of the Catholic Church says so. I get it fix, You believe that what the Catholic Church says is truth is truth for each and every person in the world - but not everyone subscribes to that “truth”. Catholicism is something which you have “faith” in - and you have “faith” that what the Catholic Church says or the Pope for that matter says is the “truth” - faith by definition is “belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence”=- by it’s own definition it is something that can not be PROVEN. Why do you believe that what the Pope says is infalible? Because they have faith that God would not allow him to say something contrary to His desire.

God Bless
Rye
When did moral relativism become so vogue?
 
It certainly can be proven. We use math proofs to prove 2+2=4. We use moral proofs for moral issues.
…then detail the watertight moral proofs which you think are like a mathematical equation

they don’t exist, but please present what you believe is the moral equivalent of 2+2=4
 
Actually, what you state is an opinion not a fact.
No, it is a fact objective proof exists. Wheyher you will accept that fact is another issue.
If you’re actually interested in Mathematical proofs and how this type of proof does not necessarily carry over to “moral” and socialogical proofs I suggest you read the following article: Proof as a practice of mathematical pursuit in a cultural,
You have not followed my reasoning at all. Relativism can really blinds us.
 
Actually, what you state is an opinion not a fact.
No, it is a fact objective proof exists. Whether you will accept that fact is another issue.
If you’re actually interested in Mathematical proofs and how this type of proof does not necessarily carry over to “moral” and socialogical proofs I suggest you read the following article: Proof as a practice of mathematical pursuit in a cultural,
socio-political and intellectual context from the 2008 article in the ZDM (the International Journal of Mathematics Education)(there are some others I could suggest, but I think this one’s a pretty good one and fairly readable)
It is difficult enough to prove mathematical proofs without throwing issues which use for a proof "this is true because the Magesterium of the Catholic Church says so. I get it fix, You believe that what the Catholic Church says is truth is truth for each and every person in the world - but not everyone subscribes to that “truth”. Catholicism is something which you have “faith” in - and you have “faith” that what the Catholic Church says or the Pope for that matter says is the “truth” - faith by definition is “belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence”=- by it’s own definition it is something that can not be PROVEN. Why do you believe that what the Pope says is infalible? Because they have faith that God would not allow him to say something contrary to His desire.

God Bless
Rye You have not followed my reasoning at all. Relativism can really blinds us.
 
…then detail the watertight moral proofs which you think are like a mathematical equation

they don’t exist, but please present what you believe is the moral equivalent of 2+2=4
I did not say they were like a mathematical equation. I said objective truth exists. You accept materialistic proof, yet you refuse proof of moral absolutes.
 
Fix, you stated that 2+2=4 no matter what anyone thinks it adds up to.
You commented about objective reality.
It was you who made the analogy.
Do you have the moral proofs that you claimed to have?
Yes or no.

I don’t reject moral proofs, I have been asking for arguments with proofs all along. Time to bring them out, fix:D
 
“Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible,
as Pilate rejected Christ because he called Himself the Truth.”

~~ Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
 
Fix, you stated that 2+2=4 no matter what anyone thinks it adds up to.
You commented about objective reality.
It was you who made the analogy.
Do you have the moral proofs that you claimed to have?
Yes or no.

I don’t reject moral proofs, I have been asking for arguments with proofs all along. Time to bring them out, fix:D
I made the analogy to show that because one rejects an objective truth does not change the truth or mean it does not exists. It simply means one rejects it.

You want proof murder is wrong? That is self evident. If you claim otherwise I would love to see your explanation.

You want proof God exists? See Aquinas.
 
Post 270:
But, as you have already been told by others here, the non-Catholic world does not equate all abortion with murder. They simply don’t. Therefore, there’s nothing “self-evident” about your assertions of supposedly absolute truths. They are not absolutes in the world as a whole, and certainly not in the U.S. as a whole.
 
Post 270:
But, as you have already been told by others here, the non-Catholic world does not equate all abortion with murder.
Of course, and many hold some races are inferior. People willing hold all types of erroneous positions. Do we stop saying it is wrong to hold such positions because people refuse to grant others dignity they deserve?
They simply don’t. Therefore, there’s nothing “self-evident” about your assertions of supposedly absolute truths.
You mean because every single person does not see what is self evident it means it is not self evident? Perhaps it means we have clouded our understanding of right and wrong for some reason?
They are not absolutes in the world as a whole, and certainly not in the U.S. as a whole.
They are absolutes, just as 2+2=4. What I think you are saying is that they are not accepted as absolutes. That has always been the case and always will be the case in many areas.

Part of the problem is this materialistic mind-set that only sees scientific type facts as objective. This is new in terms of the history of the world.
 
I made the analogy to show that because one rejects an objective truth does not change the truth or mean it does not exists. It simply means one rejects it.

You want proof murder is wrong? That is self evident. If you claim otherwise I would love to see your explanation.

You want proof God exists? See Aquinas.
“See Aquinas” is an appeal to authority, not a proof.

You mentioned objective truth. Have you provided any?
Actually it is possible to prove by formal argument that murder is wrong, fix. Saying something is self-evident is not proving anything. Have I said at any stage that murder is not wrong?

Your comments about objective truth are just another circular argument BTW.
 
Proofs that murder is wrong
Descartes stated “I think therefore I am”
I know that I exist because I am thinking, so something must be doing the thinking even if everything else is an illusions

so I know I am a person
therefore by a process of induction the people I see around me are also people

I want to be treated a particular way - I certainly don’t want to be killed
therefore it is illogical to treat other people a different way to the way which I wish to be treated
therefore I do not murder

probably not up to proper philisopher’s standards, but a justification for saying murder is wrong
 
Of course, and many hold some races are inferior.
Not even vaguely analogous to this discussion.
You mean because every single person does not see what is self evident it means it is not self evident?
No. Because some people do not see what is visibly, demonstrably, concretely, and scientifically evident to 99.9% of the world, but on the other hand “see”/hear what is absent to 99.9% of the world, and those people we call insane. Stop arguing from straw man principles.
They are absolutes, just as 2+2=4. What I think you are saying is that they are not accepted as absolutes. That has always been the case and always will be the case in many areas.
No, I am saying that the linkages drawn by the Catholic Church are not the same absolute linkages drawn by the rest of the world. The rest of the world does not see “all life” or “all dependent life” or “all stages of human life” to be an absolute which is to be protected in all circumstances. They see some legitimacy to proportionality when it comes to life and lives, thus they are, yes, relativistic in the technical scheme of things regarding weight of importance, actions, decision. They think that morality has a context, and that the context has both objective and subjective components to it.
Part of the problem is this materialistic mind-set that only sees scientific type facts as objective. This is new in terms of the history of the world.
Welcome to the world, sir. However, philosophical premises lost their classification as absolutes quite some time ago, once the idea of one philosophical system being just as valid and just as subjective as another system, was embraced.

The modern bases of philosophy have been influenced by phenomenology, but phenomenology is just as aligned with subjectivity as with “objectivity.”

Finally, when it comes to commonly held principles, the twentieth and twenty-first centuries in particular have been dominated by psychology more than philosophy, including – yes-- scientific understandings and observations regarding the psyche (which is why also phenomenology took hold in Germany and France), and contemporary advances in brain research. This has elevated the importance of (individual) perception as it relates to an understanding of truth, or commonly held assumptions.

To me – even without my Catholic training – it is patently obvious that there is a God, and I could even limit my “personal proof” of that to my individual experience, verified by others’ similar & identical individual experiences. (I’m very much a Marcelian and a Chardinian in that regard.) But it is my brain receptors that may make all the difference (scientists may tell me), in that two people growing up in the same environment, exposed to the same influences, may and do draw different conclusions about reality, given their brain configurations. This explains why I, and others, have siblings that are agnostics and atheists.
 
to OP

they are not pro-choice so much as they are simply pro-abortion… but of course there is no disctinction anymore…

if they were pro-choice (Americans) they would be complaining loudly to the whole world that the US should not be doing trade w/ China - where there are forced abortions… women are dragged out of their homes and taken to places where their 2nd babies are killed against their will… so sad

Jesus… please help us :highprayer:

we call ourselves a christian nation??

:confused:

if they were pro-choice they would be enthused about presenting both sides of the issue to young people…

but then Satan is the “father of all lies” His followers just lie, lie, lie… and then try to wrap their lies in pretty noble- sounding wrapping … try to wrap it up in words like “pro-choice” … pulllleeeeeezzzz :rolleyes:

but of course America worships freedom… another word for choice… and has ever since the Revolution… so that’s how they get away with this propaganda…

Few seem to be asking:

uh… just what exactly is it we are supposed to be choosing again?
 
This has been bothering me for some time. If “pro-choicers” are really so “pro-choice” then why are they so against the choice of being pro-life?
They are afraid of being banged up and put in jail basically so they hire pro-abortion thugs. They may also have killed so are less tolerant people and find it difficult to cope with people they don’t like.
 
Although this question sounds kind of catchy, I have yet to meet someone who is “pro choice” that would ever say they are against a woman continuring a pregnancy instead of continuing the pregnancy until birth. Being somewhat pro choice and yes, Catholic, I have asked some other friends who are pro choice what they would respond to this question. None of them said they were against the choice to be pro life. In their view, the “pro lifers” are “anti choice”. All said they believed the woman to be as autonomous as a man. One even mentioned that she hoped the day would come when instead of a woman being “forced” to cary the pregnancy to term at that time that maybe one day science would find away to hold the zygote until the woman or another woman was willing to carry the pregnancy to term. Personally, that sounds like a really great idea and I hope that comes as well. But I do have to kind of wonder if “pro lifers” wouldn’t then be against the woman putting the pregnancy off until a better time for her or allowing someone else to carry the pregnancy to term. Honestly, it seems to me that “pro lifers” are more anti choice than the “pro choicers” - I don’t see pro choice people going to OBGYN’s and standing outside saying “don’t continue that pregnancy - abort it now!” - but I do sometimes see “pro lifers” standing outside of abortion slinics yelling that they don’t have the right to choose not to continue the pregnancy. I do honestly pray that oneday scientists will be able to come up with a way for those that don’t want to carry a pregnancy, for them to be able to extract the embryo and either save it for another time or allow someone else to carry it. I don’t like seeing even the potential for life being snuffed out but at the same time, I don’t like seeing women being told that it’s their moral duty to continue a pregnancy that puts her health at risk or her moral duty to carry a pregnancy that came about because of rape or incest - however rare this may be. God gave us free will. But I have a hard time understanding some of these Catholics who when asked something like “wouldn’t it be better for someone to use birth control and not get pregnant instead of having them abort a 20 week pregnancy?” I’ve hear some priests respond it would be better and then heard Tom EItenauer (or however you spell his last name) saying that that isn’t a question that could be answered - that isn’t a choice. There are too many women out there that have trouble having kids (and having to fork out tens of thousands of dollars in order to adopt) and too many abortions - I really wish there was a way for both sides to help one another instead of just fighting about it all the time. Sorry for the diatribe at the end - but I really wish heads could be put together and solutions found.
God Bless
Rye
 
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