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fix
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A Catholic philosopher that supports abortion is not a dissenter?
If "pro-choicers" are really so "pro-choice" then why are they against the choice to be pro-life?
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fix
Guest
Yes, like the Nazis did? Is that proof being sincere makes one morally correct?
That is not the end. It is a brief retort to one on a Catholic board that is evasive.
I am pointing out that your position is one of moral relativism. People may hold all types of errnoeous views. There is an absolute truth. Truth cannot contradict truth. That one holds something contrary to the Catholic faith does not mean such a position is equivalent simply because they hold it with confidence.
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fix
Guest
I said that some Catholic academics supoort abortion. Then you said they are not dissidents.
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Doc_Keele
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Yet another straw man argument. I am pointing out to you the folly of asserting there is objective truth as a solution to the problem that someone can hold the opposing position to yourself. That is not necessarily down to relativism at all.
My position is not one of moral relativism at all, fix. This is a buzz-word used on certain fora, which has lost its original meaning.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
“Say it?” Whether said or not, the words are not tailored to specific audiences; that’s entirely the point. You may believe they are tailored, but the reality out there is otherwise. Overwhelmingly, the words do not connect with the audiences intended.
They most definitely have walked up to strangers and called them murderers. They most definitely have failed to satisfactorily, convincingly explain the relationship of the current civil law to particular moral truth, and most importantly, to persuade society at large that there even is “an objective moral truth.” (Vs. a subjective one, a relative one, etc.)
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fix
Guest
It is not a straw man at all. Sincerity does not prove moral correctness. Objective truth is not a folly. It is the reality. That not every single person grasps it does not mean it does not exist or does not apply.
No, it applies very well.
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fix
Guest
Not sure what you are saying or what your point is.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
This exchange has gone past any useful purpose, for me at least.
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fix
Guest
And this assertion is based on what? That you think pro choice is a legitimate way to convey reality?
When? This is your indictment of Catholics based on your experience?
That is not a failure of explanation. That is not a failure of the one presenting the arugment. It could be, but we know the Church has produced plenty of good information.
That many refuse to accept the truth could mean they do not want to hear. You really have to go case by case.
Again, a big part of the problem is that many who call themselves Catholic do not abide by the truth. Just look to Washington as one example. You really cannot claim that many high profile Catholics that are pro abortion have not availed themselves of good information about Church teaching? Are you saying it is those terrible, strident, implacable, Catholics that refuse to grasp that the pro choice position is just as good as pro life?
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fix
Guest
Let’s sum up.
1.I have been told the Catholic position is light intellectually. There are academics that write papers meaning their authority from the academy makes their position morally correct.
2.Holding a particular position, strongly, is equal to anyone else who holds a strong position.
1.I have been told the Catholic position is light intellectually. There are academics that write papers meaning their authority from the academy makes their position morally correct.
2.Holding a particular position, strongly, is equal to anyone else who holds a strong position.
- The Catholic position does not convey to non Catholics the truth that an unborn child is a human being that deserves not to be killed because Catholics do not understand that others view reality differently. Therefore, Catholics must engage these folks only on their terms because all people are exactly alike and respond in the exact same way meaning they will refuse to hear you unless you use the term “pro choice”.
- Direct abortion and indirect abortion cannot be separated because medical people claim as such.
- I am sure I missed a few. Perhaps others could point them out.
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TheWatcher
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Pro-choice isn’t considered pro-abortion everywhere.
In China, pro-choice is often seen as more pro-life. Choice to have children in a culture and society with population controls in place.
There are some abortion clinics and individuals who take this to the extreme.
There are some Christians who took the extreme of killing doctors to protect the innocents and felt they were justified.
Its unfair to point to the extreme individuals and assume they speak for the entire group.
If it comes down to whether or not I want the government to be making my choices, I am very much pro-choice. I don’t want my doctor aborting a child without my consent, even if he felt that I had a medical reason to do so. Neither would I want my life to be forfeit for that of my unborn’s child without my consent.
In China, pro-choice is often seen as more pro-life. Choice to have children in a culture and society with population controls in place.
There are some abortion clinics and individuals who take this to the extreme.
There are some Christians who took the extreme of killing doctors to protect the innocents and felt they were justified.
Its unfair to point to the extreme individuals and assume they speak for the entire group.
If it comes down to whether or not I want the government to be making my choices, I am very much pro-choice. I don’t want my doctor aborting a child without my consent, even if he felt that I had a medical reason to do so. Neither would I want my life to be forfeit for that of my unborn’s child without my consent.
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Newbie2
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And nobody is asking that you’d do so.
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ryecroft
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It seems to me that Fix’s argument is that the “truth” that he holds which he takes from the Church is the one and only “truth” and that anyone that holds a “truth” which is different than his is wrong. If the point is to try to persuade pro choice people, I don’t see how this will help at all. This thread implied (or tried to) that it was impossible for someone who was prochoice to ever be pro life in any situation, which is a fallacy. Taking that argument would say that pro choice people are only interested in abortion, which is not true - otherwise, there would be no prochoice mothers out there and there are plenty. Prochoice people (at least all of the ones I know) are interested in allowing a woman to not feel that if she gets pregnant she has only one path to follow regardless of her circumstances. Many prolifers go out to PPH and clinics where abortions occur and stand out with signs and phamplets praying and saying that the product of conception is always a baby and tell them (shouting sometimes) that they have no right to take their “baby’s life”. Now if those that are really prochoice were “against the choice to be pro-life” (which incidnetally is part of the name of this thread’s title) then I would expect them to be doing all they could in order to keep women from having children - going to obstetrician’s offices and women’s hospitals and having signs - yelling that they shouldn’t be allowing a fetus to be born- that wait, it’s not too late to have an abortion!. Yet I have yet to see any of this. Yes, there are some organizations such as PPH that promote abortion often more than the other choices (but not every prochoice person is involved with PPH)- but never have I seen something that said “if you’re pregnant, you have no right to carry the fetus inside you to term…”
I think that many on here understand (even though some will argue against) - that truth to a Catholic is not the same truth to someone else who is not a Catholic (even some that are) and does not necessarily subscribe to Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church’s “truth” is NOT everyone else’s “truth”. Saying that the Catholic Church’s “truth” is the only correct “truth” over and over will not help someone investigate and consider that truth, it will make them defensive and likely to block out any possibility or reconsideration of what they may consider to be a “grey” truth instead of what a pro life Catholic may believe to be a “black and white” truth.
For instance -Let’s say I’m outside looking at the sky and you come up to me and say “isn’t that a lovely blue sky” - I say " what do you mean blue sky - that sky is purple and pink - while you truly believe that the sky is blue, I truly believe that the sky is purple and pink. Just because you sit there and tell me five hundred times that I’m wrong it’s blue is not going to change that my truth is that the sky is purple and pink - in fact, insisting that you’re right and that the sky is blue will just make me want to tune you out or ignore you. If you go on to say that an expert agrees with you that it is blue and that I need to believe it’s blue because your expert has said it is also will not influence me or get me to even consider that your “truth” might hold some validity. Now if you were to say "let’s look at this and see - maybe I’m wrong (regarless of if you believe you are or not) might actually get me to listen.
God Bless
Rye
I think that many on here understand (even though some will argue against) - that truth to a Catholic is not the same truth to someone else who is not a Catholic (even some that are) and does not necessarily subscribe to Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church’s “truth” is NOT everyone else’s “truth”. Saying that the Catholic Church’s “truth” is the only correct “truth” over and over will not help someone investigate and consider that truth, it will make them defensive and likely to block out any possibility or reconsideration of what they may consider to be a “grey” truth instead of what a pro life Catholic may believe to be a “black and white” truth.
For instance -Let’s say I’m outside looking at the sky and you come up to me and say “isn’t that a lovely blue sky” - I say " what do you mean blue sky - that sky is purple and pink - while you truly believe that the sky is blue, I truly believe that the sky is purple and pink. Just because you sit there and tell me five hundred times that I’m wrong it’s blue is not going to change that my truth is that the sky is purple and pink - in fact, insisting that you’re right and that the sky is blue will just make me want to tune you out or ignore you. If you go on to say that an expert agrees with you that it is blue and that I need to believe it’s blue because your expert has said it is also will not influence me or get me to even consider that your “truth” might hold some validity. Now if you were to say "let’s look at this and see - maybe I’m wrong (regarless of if you believe you are or not) might actually get me to listen.
God Bless
Rye
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Rence
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It seems to me that Fix’s argument is that the “truth” that he holds which he takes from the Church is the one and only “truth” and that anyone that holds a “truth” which is different than his is wrong.
**That is correct. Apparently that is what the Church teaches. I never heard of Absolutism until I came to this forum, but yes. This is what Catholics are supposed to believe. I was raised to acknowledge people’s differences and understand that everyone has the right to their beliefs and values. So Absolutism is a very foreign notion to me and it was always viewed negatively by those around me. And I grew up in a Catholic environment all my life. **
If the point is to try to persuade pro choice people, I don’t see how this will help at all. This thread implied (or tried to) that it was impossible for someone who was prochoice to ever be pro life in any situation, which is a fallacy. Taking that argument would say that pro choice people are only interested in abortion, which is not true - otherwise, there would be no prochoice mothers out there and there are plenty. Prochoice people (at least all of the ones I know) are interested in allowing a woman to not feel that if she gets pregnant she has only one path to follow regardless of her circumstances.
Yeah, I tried to explain that, but hit a brick wallGood luck to you with that wall …
Many prolifers go out to PPH and clinics where abortions occur and stand out with signs and phamplets praying and saying that the product of conception is always a baby and tell them (shouting sometimes) that they have no right to take their “baby’s life”. Now if those that are really prochoice were “against the choice to be pro-life” (which incidnetally is part of the name of this thread’s title) then I would expect them to be doing all they could in order to keep women from having children - going to obstetrician’s offices and women’s hospitals and having signs - yelling that they shouldn’t be allowing a fetus to be born- that wait, it’s not too late to have an abortion!. Yet I have yet to see any of this. Yes, there are some organizations such as PPH that promote abortion often more than the other choices (but not every prochoice person is involved with PPH)- but never have I seen something that said “if you’re pregnant, you have no right to carry the fetus inside you to term…”
**You’re right again. I’ve never ever ever heard of a pro-choicer doing this. **
I think that many on here understand (even though some will argue against) - that truth to a Catholic is not the same truth to someone else who is not a Catholic (even some that are) and does not necessarily subscribe to Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church’s “truth” is NOT everyone else’s “truth”.
**I was reprimanded for saying the above in another post. In fact, I said that people base their beliefs and values on their life experiences and I was told I was sinning.
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fix
Guest
Let’s be honest. 2+2=4. Call it 5 or 12 or 100, but your perception cannot change what is really true. If you want to hide your head in the sand and give various reasons for hiding your head that in no way changes that 2+2=4.
If you want proof that can be provided. Will you accept the proof? No, and for some it will not matter how good the proof is.
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ryecroft
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Your belief does not equal proof for everyone - nor does my belief equal proof for everyone. The fact that the Catholic Church says that something is the “truth” is the same (to someone who is looking in) as a belief. No matter how much the Church says it is true and that it is “truth” because it says it is"truth" may inspire you to believe or even “know” that what they say is the true - but to those looking in, it just often sounds like a three year old stamping their feet saying “I’m right…” but when questioned the only reason they can give they “know” they are right is “because” or “because I know it” -
It seems to me, and many others on here that you have a very strong faith and I commend you (fix) on that - but just because you have faith and “know” something to be true does not make it so for everyone else. It also seems to me that you’re trying to use emperical proofs (which are used in mathematics- just as you mentioned)- but you can’t prove a belief to everyone else. Also, proving that 2+2 =4 is something that is black and with to EVERYONE - I have never heard anyone say differently )unless it was in a philisophical teaching text or in other philosophical possibilities). While SOME may agree that this is a matter that is black and white, most believe that it is a very GREY area. Ask the majority of people when a joined egg and sperm becomes human and you’ll get a myriad of answers. Just because the Catholic Church says that at the moment of conception, a joined egg and sperm or zygote is a person and that this is the one and only “truth” and there will not be a lot of people who agree with your “truth”. Ask people what 2+2 is and you’ll get the same answer each time.
Just so you know, I am not stating that I agree or disagree with you - I just don’t see any merit (except for personal faith) - in arguing that you are right about what you say because it is the “truth” - or that it is the “truth” because the Church says it is. If you’re wanting to get people to even consider helping to cease the amount of abortions (because my personal belief is that in the unlikely possibility that it is made illegal again, people will still do it illegaly-again, that’s my “belief” doesn’t make it your belief (or truth) or anyone else’s belief or even completely true)- you are going to have to not only try to change their hearts but also appeal to their logic. Saying over and over “this is the truth whether you believe it or not” doesn’t help the situation at all.
God Bless
Rye
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fix
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It certainly can be proven. We use math proofs to prove 2+2=4. We use moral proofs for moral issues.
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