If "pro-choicers" are really so "pro-choice" then why are they against the choice to be pro-life?

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fix said:
There are plenty of formal arguments. They are presented in these fora constantly. As I said in this thread, or the other one, arguments will not be accepted no matter how cogent they may be when people refuse to be convinced of what is true.

All that can be done is to keep putting the truth out front and hope and pray the H S will convert us.

Finally, have we come to a point in our civilization where we need a formal proof for what is self evident? That, alone, is an indictment.
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Fix, I think the problem (that I have seen) with this subject is that from the very beginning, it is a drive within us to protect ourselves. You’ve seen my responses on various threads regarding this issue: abortion would not be an option I would consider. However, for many people the prospect of a woman’s life being in danger is going to trump a pregnancy. That’s just the way it is. We’ve seen women die to have children and we’ve seen women risk their health for their children. We all know that happens and it’s very real, and it’s their choice, and they choose the life of their baby over themselves and it’s freely done. But when people are told “the woman’s life isn’t as important as the baby” and such, it scares the heck out of people, especially non-catholics, and non-practicing catholics. Of course, you and I know it’s ********, because those situations are dealt with very well these days. But the prospect of being told your mother, sister, niece, daughter has to die just beause she’s pregnant is repugnant to people. The same with rape. We all know there are wonderful, strong, brave women out there who would not consider taking Plan B in the ER, or aborting an already implanted fetus later on after discovering she’s preganat after a rape. We see these women choosing life. But we also see women who can’t cope with their rape and an impeding pregnancy. And for others to tell her that she is not as important as the baby is repulsive to a lot of people. Those who fear being raped and those who know friends who were raped do not want to hear how insignificant these women are. It’s people’s innate drive to protect themselves from harm, or further harm, that makes pro-lifers who want to eliminate any attempt a woman takes to protect herself that will keep them fighting for women’s rights.

I don’t know really what the future of abortion availability will be, no one does. But I really don’t see any near-future bans on abortion in the case of rape or in the case that a woman’s life is in danger. I just don’t see that ever not being availabe. I think abortion as an elective will probably be highly regulated for other situations, as it should be. But you’re not going to convince people that they are less than a fetus. I just don’t see it happening. It fights against the drive to protect onesself and the women in their lives.

But you’re right, maybe with prayers and the influence of the HS, people will find their strength as individuals to do what He wants us to do, regardless of the availablity of abortion.
 
Tell me when faced with this. Where do you stand?

A woman is pregnant. During the pregnancy there are complications where both the mother and the child are extremely likely to die if the pregnancy continues. Now the life of the mother can be saved if she were to have an abortion. The problem: its against the law for her to abort the baby. If caught the woman and the Dr. or medical student (most likely) would be either one thrown in jail or two killed.

In one scenario the baby dies.

In another the woman and baby die.

which is acceptable? The answer should be obvious…none.

Note- In the end we are all Pro Choice and have the ability to choose life or death. The label of Pro Life or Pro Choice in truth is nothing more than a political mechanism. First used in the 20th century by the Republican party to give women the right to choose. Now that polarity has changed and the very party that endorsed it in the beginning is the fore front of changing it yet again. Am I a Democrat nope. Am I a Republican nope. Am I an american citizen who votes Yes.

The sad fact is whether the baby was conceived in the the womb or has already been born and is 2 years old, it has no choice in anything…none. The babies life depends on the mother and father. Thus the parents have the choice.

I suppose if the law here was changed it could be changed to allow the father a little more say so in the pregnancy but even then the woman still has the ultimaent say so. So this whole argument is pointless and in truth is simply used as a smoke screen to divert people from the bigger picture. Whats the bigger picture you ask? Simple what are our politicians doing?
 
fix said:
There are plenty of formal arguments. They are presented in these fora constantly
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Agreed - exactly my point.
As I said in this thread, or the other one, arguments will not be accepted no matter how cogent they may be when people refuse to be convinced of what is true
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Well, that’s missing the point. You’re convinced that these arguments are true. Other people are equally convinced their arguments are true.
Finally, have we come to a point in our civilization where we need a formal proof for what is self evident? That, alone, is an indictment.
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That’s why the pro-life movement don’t get anywhere.
 
Doc_Keele said:
Agreed - exactly my point.
Well, that’s missing the point. You’re convinced that these arguments are true. Other people are equally convinced their arguments are true.
That’s why the pro-life movement don’t get anywhere.
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I’m curious, what do you think about the woman who is otherwise perfectly healthy, is married, has plenty of money, space, time, emotional reserve, etc. and has an “oops” pregnancy. Maybe she wanted to wait a year to have a baby for whatever reason, and let’s assume it’s a trivial reason…I don’t know, make up something silly like it’s 2010 and she wanted to have a baby in an odd-numbered year because everyone else in the family was born in an odd year and she’s superstitious.

OK to abort then?
 
Newbie, you seem to be confused about my position. You seem to believe if someone presents an argument they must agree with it.
 
Doc_Keele said:
Newbie, you seem to be confused about my position. You seem to believe if someone presents an argument they must agree with it.
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Yes, I’m confused about your position. What I read is a vehement defense of abortion in your responses; most folks make it pretty clear when they play devil’s advocate (no pun intended).

So, what exactly is your position?
 
Doc_Keele said:
I’ve discussed it already enough, but does it really matter in any case???
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Yep, it does matter from my POV. When someone is as evasive as you have been in answering a direct question about your position on abortion, I wonder why.

But, although my curiousity hasn’t been satisfied, I tire of game playing and will retire from this thread. Nice chatting with you, Doc.
 
There’s no game-playing, I have stated elsewhere what my position is.
You don’t need to know my position to be able to judge whether or not the arguments I’ve presented are sound or not.

It’s interesting that you jump to this conclusion.
 
Sorry, that wasn’t very helpful.
I am anti-abortion as it happens, even when I had no faith I was - but with certain exceptions eg for serious risks to the mother’s health.
 
Thank you.

Believe it or not, that really helps me understand your position. And I can understand why the Catholic position can be difficult to understand and agree with. There is an interesting thread going on over in the Non-Catholic religion thread about which Christian denominations find abortion to be or not to be morally acceptable and under what circumstances.

It would seem that your POV is very close to what Lutherans hold.
 
Doc_Keele said:
Agreed - exactly my point.
Well, that’s missing the point. You’re convinced that these arguments are true. Other people are equally convinced their arguments are true.
That’s why the pro-life movement don’t get anywhere.
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But, there is an objective reality. Being convinced is not the standard.
 
Theyre not against people being pro-life in opinion/morality, theyre against people trying to change the law to be strictly pro-life (i.e. disabling the choice.) There isn’t anyone around who LIKES abortions, least not anyone I know. They’d have to be pretty sick. But if the law was strictly pro-life, there would be no choice whether to have abortions, so obviously pro-choicers argue against that.
 
distracted said:
*****if people are so pro-choice, why is there forced abortion in china & NO feminist that i know of or any other pro-abort person… has come out against it?

why dont’ they just call themselves waht they are Pro abortion??

that choice **** is just… that…*****
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Because they’re NOT pro abortion. In my case, I didnt know that there was/is forced abortion in China, though I know they have population ‘control’ and limits on numbers etc. And I’m not sure what people in another country can even do about it - there is only so much we can do. Most pro-choice and pro-life protest and campaign for the laws of their own country to be a certain way. In the same way, I dont agree with how many muslim women are treated in the middle east, but I dont feel there’s much I can do about that.
 
Rence said:
What are YOU doing about it? Tell us what to do to make it better in China for women.

What specifically are your expectations? What specifically do you want feminists to do about it? What specifically do you want pro-choicers to do about it? Rally in D.C about changing the laws in China? They’re not even a Catholic country. What is the Vatican doing about it? What are their suggestions?

I personally loathe that situation in China. However, I have my hands full here at home. Making sure the rights of our own women are protected is a priority for me. If China’s women are a priority for you, please tell us how you are helping them because I, for one, have no clue what would influence that country to treat women better. They’re second-class citizens and chattel there to begin with.
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there doesn’t seem to be much anyone can do but at least feminists who have influence in the world could speak out about it… if they have i have NOT heard…
 
Lethe said:
Theyre not against people being pro-life in opinion/morality, theyre against people trying to change the law to be strictly pro-life (i.e. disabling the choice.) There isn’t anyone around who LIKES abortions, least not anyone I know. They’d have to be pretty sick. But if the law was strictly pro-life, there would be no choice whether to have abortions, so obviously pro-choicers argue against that.
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and my argument is: Since when does a civilized society give people the choice to murder someone? especailly a totally innocent human being… who i might add did NOT ask to be where he is… His mother put him there, w/ the father’s assistance… Why should he have to die becasue they were irresponsible? but then personal responsibility has never been a big slogan in the US … or elsewhere, apparnetly…
 
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