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tweetymom
Guest
Amen
If "pro-choicers" are really so "pro-choice" then why are they against the choice to be pro-life?
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fix
Guest
What choice does the baby get?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
No. Pro-choice = The government does not make my moral choices for me, nor moral choices for others. That’s all it means. Now, I understand your second point, but there’s the rub: the philosophical difference. Millions of people of both genders and various religious affiliations in this country do not equate (especially early-stage) abortion with murder or other inhumane crimes. It is not, to them, in the same category as genocide or rape. The Catholic “reality” is that abortion is murder. The “reality” of people of many other beliefs (and of some moralists with no religious beliefs) is that abortion is murder. But it is not universally believed such as murder of a born person, etc.
Again, I’m just the messenger, not the advocate.
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o_mlly
Guest
It does when it spends my tax dollars to abort babies.
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distracted
Guest
YES!
they are already pushing for the murder of babies already born…
OR & WA have assisted suicide…
china has forced abortion…
***and the US buys all its stuff from WHAT COUNTRY??? ***
we already have “forced abortion” because women in certain situations are coerced by family, friends, gov’t workers & just about all of society to abort… if the child is retarded, inconvenient… “illegitimate”… (still happens)…
it wasn’t for nothing that the pope called this the culture of death…
euthanasia is here…
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distracted
Guest
that’s right… and they should make NO apologies for that…
we r talking about LIFE here… If your life was in danger… you would want someone to intervene & try 2 save you… just like people are doing w/ the unborn…
**how would u like 2b aborted? ever seen an aborted child? would YOU like to go through that?? **
do unto others as you would have thme do unto you…
killing an unborn child doesn’t make the mother’s life better. you would think that would be a big duh… but people aren’t so smart sometimes…
2 wrongs don’t make a right… even in rape… murder doesn’t make rape right…
it just adds to the woman’s mental problems…
2 wrongs don’t make a right
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distracted
Guest
No anti-murder (of adults) laws = The government does not make my moral choices for me, nor moral choices for others.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Responding to Post 25:
No, that is not a definition of a “choice” (decision). You, the taxpayer, are not making a decision. The individual choosing the abortion is making the decision.
And as to funding…
No, that is not a definition of a “choice” (decision). You, the taxpayer, are not making a decision. The individual choosing the abortion is making the decision.
And as to funding…
During the Vietnam War, millions of Americans objected on moral grounds to their tax money funding the war. They considered those military actions to be murders of born human beings, and even genocide. Might be a different moral viewpoint than CAF members did hold regarding Vietnam, or do hold about many other morally questionable government actions, which covers an extremely wide category. If any of us were to follow strict Catholic doctrine, we could not in good conscience pay any taxes, because some of them would inevitably support, even indirectly, actions, policies which we consider immoral. But then we would be in jail. God does not require such self-endangering activity on our part.
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distracted
Guest
and you know this absolutely?? are you God?
even if the child didn’t know anything (which has proven not to be true)… that is no reason to murder him
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Newbie2
Guest
It’s called “protecting the innocent”.
So is a newborn, incapable of making choices, that is. So by your reasoning, it’s OK to kill newborns.
We should assume that any gestating baby would make the choice not to be killed. I have yet to have compelling evidence to the contrary.
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fix
Guest
Plenty of humans cannot make choices for various reasons. That does not lead us to conclude they ought to be murdered.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
Unfortunately that’s wordplay rather than a philosophical argument.
Actually the basis of being “pro-choice” is autonomy.
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o_mlly
Guest
I most certainly do make a decision to pay my taxes and so do you. The logical fallacy you present is called the excluded middle. We both make decisions: I to pay my taxes and she to abort; they are not mutually exclusive.
As to funding:
“WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama on Friday struck down the Bush administration’s ban on giving federal money to international groups that perform abortions or provide abortion information — an inflammatory policy that has bounced in and out of law for the past quarter-century. …”
AP Fri., Jan. 23, 2009
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logic_oriented
Guest
I can only speak for myself of course, but I am in no way against the choice of others to be pro-life. I am against any law requiring everybody to be pro-life.
In anticipation of the inevitable “what other reprehensible choices are you in favor of?!” responses: that isn’t the point. This response is intended merely to illustrate the misleadingly hyperbolic nature of the original post.
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o_mlly
Guest
But as Catholics, may we “just be the messenger”? Are we not obliged (morally responsible) to undo structures of sin where we encounter them? I am my brother’s keeper.
CCC #1869 Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. “Structures of sin” are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144
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Elizabeth502
Guest
When I said “the messenger,” I mean the messenger on this thread, with regard to the OP’s question, that’s all. I didn’t mean an escape from moral decision-making.
Again I reiterate, to those who keep talking about making decisions, etc. because of funding. Yes. The only way to be pure is to pay no taxes. That is clear. You may go ahead and believe that God expects you to do that. I know he does not expect me to do that. There are any number of positions, policies, actions that the gov’t engages in that are contrary to Catholic moral teaching, abortion being only one of several.
Again I reiterate, to those who keep talking about making decisions, etc. because of funding. Yes. The only way to be pure is to pay no taxes. That is clear. You may go ahead and believe that God expects you to do that. I know he does not expect me to do that. There are any number of positions, policies, actions that the gov’t engages in that are contrary to Catholic moral teaching, abortion being only one of several.
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o_mlly
Guest
If by “several” you mean only the following three, I agree. If not, would you specify?
On March 30, 2006, Pope Benedict XVI stated:
As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the principal focus of her interventions in the public arena is the protection and promotion of the dignity of the person, and she is thereby consciously drawing particular attention to principles which are not negotiable. Among these the following emerge clearly today:
• Protection of life in all its stages, from the first moment of conception until natural death;
• Recognition and promotion of the natural structure of the family – as a union between a man and a woman based on marriage – and its defense from attempts to make it juridically equivalent to radically different forms of union which in reality harm it and contribute to its destabilization, obscuring its particular character and its irreplaceable social role;
• The protection of the rights of parents to educate their children.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
Part of the dignity of the person relates to autonomy.
Why do the rights of the foetus trump the rights of the mother?
Why do the rights of the foetus trump the rights of the mother?
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Newbie2
Guest
And the same question could be asked of a newborn, no?
The answer remains, because Catholic theology espouses the notion that every human has a right to life. It’s not a case (or let’s say rarely, when it’s either mom or the baby) of her life vs. its life.
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