If "pro-choicers" are really so "pro-choice" then why are they against the choice to be pro-life?

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Hi Bill, thanks for the response. I’m an attorney (American, unlike Doc :p), so I’m familiar with the laws themselves.

What value to you attribute to the consensus of public opinion? I agree that consensus is a good thing, especially in our pseudo-democratic society, but I’m sure you’d agree that a consensus (or lack thereof) could easily be wrong. Just take your pick of issues from the civil rights era, and there were times when public opinion came out on the wrong side.
 
Hi Bill, thanks for the response. I’m an attorney (American, unlike Doc :p), so I’m familiar with the laws themselves.

What value to you attribute to the consensus of public opinion? I agree that consensus is a good thing, especially in our pseudo-democratic society, but I’m sure you’d agree that a consensus (or lack thereof) could easily be wrong. Just take your pick of issues from the civil rights era, and there were times when public opinion came out on the wrong side.
Good point about the ability of consensus to be wrong, although I would characterize in a different way. I would say that sometimes the perception of the consensus lags reality.

Let me give you an example, actually, let me expand on one of your examples. You bring up the struggle for Civil Rights, which is really a good example. But I would contend that the “hearts and minds” of white Southerners changed well before the law changed. In fact, I would assert that if the hearts and minds hadn’t changed, then implementation of desegregation and political enfranchisement would have been impossible.

As evidence for both of these assertions, I would cite the very low level of actual violence and resistance to the implementation of desegregation and Black political enfranchisement in the 1960s, especially compared to the level in the 1860s, in aftermath of the Civil War.

I would also note, that in a democratically based system, if you’re at all serious about the “consent of the governed” thing, you are pretty much stuck with the consensus you have. The best you can do is go back and correct injustices after the fact as we did with Japanese-Americans (Korematsu v. United States) and Blacks (***Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka).

***Attempting to circumvent the will of the majority will be generally be problematic as it was with Prohibition, and is with speeding. Another good example, which pro-lifers might profit by (IMHO) is MADD. Mothers Against Drunk Driving was formed in 1980 by a woman whose child was killed by a drunk driver. That organization initiated public education efforts that were instrumental in creating a groundswell of opinion against drunk driving. In the past 30 years DUI has gone from being a semi-serious but still routine traffic offense to being a very serious offense indeed. A a result, between 1982 and 2005, alcohol related auto fatalities dropped 35%. We’ve made similar progress against domestic violence, using much the same tactic of education and changing the social environment.

Notably, both spousal abuse and DUI have always been illegal, but neither were effectively addressed until the social acceptability of them changed. As the social norm changed, the laws got tougher, not the other way around.

So, yeah, I believe we need education and a change in the social environment first, then the laws will change.
 
So would you be in favor of campaigns to change the public opinion against abortion? And if the public opinion turned into a consensus against abortion, would you support its criminalization under more circumstances?
 
Exactly. I never did understand the claims by pro-lifers that pro-choicers are pro-abortion. The fact that someone is pro-choice in no way means they are pro-abortion. It means they want a choice to be available.

And yes, please no flaming.
Oh, okay. So this means we can’t disagree with you.

This is a reasoning your way out. Why would the choice for murder of infants need to be available?
 
So would you be in favor of campaigns to change the public opinion against abortion? And if the public opinion turned into a consensus against abortion, would you support its criminalization under more circumstances?
Sure to both, see my post a little while ago…
I am in favor of efforts to educate the population on pro-life issues, and efforts to provide material and emotional support for pregnant women so they are less likely to choose abortion. I look forward to the day when even the concept of abortion is an archaic thing found only in history textbooks.

I don’t think we will get there through legislation, which, in this day and age, I am convinced does more harm then good.
Note the qualification. I will be in favor of legislation, when I believe it can be effective.

Of course, by then it will probably not be necessary (which would be the best outcome of all).
 
No flaming, please?!

Oh, okay. So this means we can’t disagree with you.

This is a reasoning your way out. Why would the choice for murder of infants need to be available?
Hogwash, being pro-choice means being in favor of allowing other human beings the right to make their own decisions whether or not I agree with them.
Very well put.
 
So would you be in favor of campaigns to change the public opinion against abortion? And if the public opinion turned into a consensus against abortion, would you support its criminalization under more circumstances?
I would support criminalization under any and all circumstances. It’s murder. The Catholic Church agrees.
 
This has been bothering me for some time. If “pro-choicers” are really so “pro-choice” then why are they so against the choice of being pro-life?
I do not view negatively any woman who decides to carry to term a pregnancy. I support their decision to do so. Likewise, I support a woman’s decision to terminate a pregnancy and I will not view her negatively as a consequence. I realize that no woman makes these decisions flippantly and I support them either way.

I am against the idea that government should play decision maker in such a personal and contentious moral issue. I am not against those who carry to term a pregnancy or support pregnancy measures to discourage abortion. I am against those who believe that any restrictive policy should be enacted by government.

It’s no more the governments right to this decision than it is the government’s right to choose a person’s place of employment, house or financial situation, or what religion a person should follow. It’s important that you understand that people in favor of lenient abortion laws are not pro-death or against carrying the pregnancy to term. They are against the idea that the government has the right to make personal moral decisions for it’s citizens.

PS: I try to clarify the pro-choice position on some matters. I don’t debate users on the abortion issue. Most people, by this time, have already made up their mind (including myself) on the issue, making it a moot point to debate. :bluelite:
 
I would support criminalization under any and all circumstances. It’s murder. The Catholic Church agrees.
But much of the rest of U.S. society does not agree – especially the part about “any and all circumstances.” Anyone is entitled to engage in, or continue, a campaign to persuade American society to adopt the Catholic viewpoint. So far, that has not succeeded. Nor are we a theocracy, so such a position cannot be mandated as a minority viewpoint on account of some governmental prerogative to make moral decisions in personal areas.
 
Does the mother have a choice under Catholic teaching? You reckon?
I personally don’t hold the “watershed” as birth so I wasn’t arguing on the basis of third trimester foetuses, but it would not be an arbitrary distinction to do so.
The frequency of the scenario doesn’t have much if any relevance to the morality.
I agree that the frequency doesn’t have relevance to the morality of the act; I wasn’t sure if you thought so or not. Here we agree.

I’m unclear from your previous discussion where you stand on abortion; morally permissible or morally unacceptable? In your view does it change the morality if the mother makes a choice to terminate her unborn baby’s life in order to save hers? (Assuming, of course, that she has been given a medical “ultimatum” i.e. that if she doesn’t abort the baby she will most certainly die. We could discuss all sorts of in-betweens, but let’s make it a clear cut of mom vs. unborn baby, however unlikely, as I wish to see if such a scenario changes the moral permissibility of abortion in your POV)
 
Ummm, first of all, I find your post to be incredibly rude. Second of all, I did not ask the question. The quoted person asked that particular question. :rolleyes:
Aww, well I’m sorry you think my post was rude. If I thought it was rude, I would have never posted it. The last thing I would want to do is be rude to you Holly 🙂
This has been bothering me for some time. If “pro-choicers” are really so “pro-choice” then why are they so against the choice of being pro-life?
The above wasn’t posted by you in the first post of this thread? I’m sorry, I must have been mistaken…It looked like you posted the beginning of a thread with a question. 🤷

Well, to whoever asked the question: pro-choicers are not against the choice of being pro-life. They are in support of women having choice, no matter what that choice is. That includes your right to be pro-life 🙂
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence
I am only in control of my own actions, and what I would do, is give alternatives and help research. I can’t speak for others. I do not control (nor do I want to control) other people’s actions.

Well, yes, of course. But when you speak about not wanting to control other people’s actions, does that include influencing other people’s actions? As well, when I say you’d be wrong to think that in general pro-choicers are likely to give the pro-life alternative, I mean that precisely; they are going to push abortion.

When I speak about not wanting to control other people’s actions, that specifically means that I do not want to control other people’s actions. It means I want THEM to make the choice. Pro-choicers are in support of choice, they don’t push abortion any more than they push not having an abortion. If an individual who happens to be pro-choice is ‘pushing’ abortions, they are doing so as their own individual self, and are not representative of all pro-choicers. Are all pro-lifers evil because a pro-lifer has bombed an abortion clinic?

Because some pro-choicers really and truly believe that a woman has the right to her choice. It’s that simple.There really is no need to dig further, it really is that simple.

Right. They support abortion. Pro-lifers are against abortion. That’s what we’re all saying.

No, that’s not what “we’re all” saying. That’s what some Pro-lifers, including you, are saying. Pro-choicers have repeatedly said what they believe. Contradicting them about their own thoughts and beliefs doesn’t make your claims any more ‘correct’. No one is more qualified to say what a person thinks or feels but that person being asked.

The above claim is simply a matter of opinion and I support your right to have your opinion. I support your right to live your life the way you choose, and support your right to make choices for yourself. However, no one has the right to make someone else’s choices and that’s ALL that matters to me. I own my choices. Just like the woman next door owns her choices. While I’m truly very sorry that my opinon and my rights are so upsetting to you, your opinions and rights certainly don’t upset me. I’m just grateful we each have those rights to exercise.

Do you see the irony there? “No one has the right tomake someone else’s choices, and that’s all that matters to (you)”. The mother is making a choice to terminate the baby’s life; you’re saying she has no right to make that choice. How could you possibly support a pro-choice position, then???

**Pro-choice is about supporting one’s right to make decisions over her own body. Women have the right to decide on matters regarding their own body. **

BTW, your position isn’t “upsetting” to me. It’s that the hypocrisy of the whole “pro-choice” idea. The mom has a choice, but the baby is denied a choice. Mom’s rights supercede the baby’s rights. Are you grateful that the baby has it’s rights denied?

I am grateful that I have the right to govern my own body. Again, I’m sorry that you do don’t like that I have that choice. But I am also grateful that YOU have a choice to govern your own body. And I hope you always do.
 
Rence;6308287:
Because some pro-choicers really and truly believe that a woman has the right to her choice. It’s that simple.There really is no need to dig further, it really is that simple.
Right. They support abortion. Pro-lifers are against abortion. That’s what we’re all saying.
I’m curious about something. If I say to you (or anybody), “You can have chocolate ice cream or vanilla ice cream,” which of them do I support?
 
Newbie2 - yes, I believe that there are some situations where abortion is morally permissible where the mother’s life is in serious danger. There certainly are situations where this is the case.
 
Well, I live in the US, not the UK, the only thing I know about UK justice is from reading The Economist and Rumpole books, but surely they still have the concept of non-criminal killing, as well as different degrees of criminal culpability based on circumstances and intent, right?
Clearly they do, but it’s not known as homicide.
Murder (in E&W) has a very specific intent, intent to kill or cause serious harm. If that intent isn’t proven (and this includes oblique intent), then it isn’t murder. Additionally, killing someone as part of a suicide pact is charged as manslaughter.
 
No. Pro-choice = The government does not make my moral choices for me, nor moral choices for others. That’s all it means.
If people mean that then they are being disingenuous. The governments makes “choices” all the time that protect innocent life. I find it strange that people who hold such views never want that same logic applied to the those who are already born.
Now, I understand your second point, but there’s the rub: the philosophical difference. Millions of people of both genders and various religious affiliations in this country do not equate (especially early-stage) abortion with murder or other inhumane crimes. It is not, to them, in the same category as genocide or rape. The Catholic “reality” is that abortion is murder. The “reality” of people of many other beliefs (and of some moralists with no religious beliefs) is that abortion is murder. But it is not universally believed such as murder of a born person, etc.

Again, I’m just the messenger, not the advocate.
Oh, people misperceive reality all the time. The point is such misperception is not justification for holding such distorted views. I mean people can be obstinate for many reasons.
 
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