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Cristian_B
Guest
The church is made by sheep, so perhaps it should be the one to listen.
If Protestantism is so good, then where was it for the first 1,500 years?
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Scoobyshme
Guest
The Church was instituted by Jesus Christ. The members therein who listen to His Church, which Paul calls the Body of Christ, are sheep. The others who do not, are goats.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Not necessarily because typology is not a perfect mirror and one needn’t go that far. Consider how Paul calls Jesus the figure of Adam (Rm 5:14; 1 Cor 15:45). If we insist that typology is always a perfect mirror, is Jesus therefore married and had kids like Adam? Does Paul insist on taking the typology that far? Of course not. He is a type of Adam relative to certain attributes related to salvation. In the same way, Paul writes:*Col 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.*To the extent that circumcision is an act of incorporation, baptism is its type, incorporating Christians into Christ. The language unites the believer to Christ, places the believer “in Him”, by having the believer “die” with Christ through baptism, and thus raised with Him.
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Cristian_B
Guest
Read the red, bold text in the same quote (Col 2:11-12). Does a baby have faith?
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Ok this does not address the typology at work here, but here’s your answer. In Scripture, when there are people who are “unable” to come to Jesus the way most people can, Christ accepts someone’s plea on their behalf. Think of the sick centurian’s servant who is healed because of the faith of the centurian (Mt 8:5-13), or the paralytic who was healed and forgiven because of the faith of his friends (Mk 2:3-5). Or the Canaanite woman who interceded for her sick daughter, healed by Jesus through the faith of the mother (Mt 15:22-28). In infant baptism, the parents and Church supply the faith in proxy, just like in these other examples.
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Cristian_B
Guest
So are you saying me that if I intercede for Satan he will be saved? Are you saying me that if I intercede for a criminal like Hitler (supposing he isn’t saved), he will be saved? Are you saying that if I have a very strong faith the Roman emperor Nero, who has done a great damage to the Church, and supposing he didn’t seek God, that he will be saved because of me? Those people did not gain eternal life because of someone’s strong faith. If Jesus has a very strong faith and believes in us, does that mean that we don’t have to do anything at all (e.g.: believe in Him or accept Him) to achieve salvation? Baptism has to do with salvation: one’s own salvation. Only personal faith can save you. If a very good Christian will intercede for a very sinful and ungodly person, will that save the ungodly person? Perhaps it will be shown some mercy from God, but that won’t bring him salvation. Only one’s own faith can bring one’s own salvation. If you refuse to put your faith in Christ, even if the whole Church will plead for you, you won’t receive eternal life, because it is a personal relationship with God that we must have in order to receive Him. Those people you spoke about received physical healing, but was that any good for them? Did that physical healing give them salvation? No directly. Jesus said: ‘take courage, daughter, thy faith hath saved thee’ (Luke 8:48 YLT) Also, it says in Col., in the previous passage you quoted: having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God. It says ‘your faith’, not another person’s faith. Also, baptism represents a new life in which we give away our sinful nature with it’s desires. A baby did not yet learn how to do that. I mean, God does the work, but not without your will. You accept Him, but can a baby accept Him and allow Him to change him? I guarantee you that if you baptize a child and then give him to a family of unbelievers, when he will grow up his baptism served for nothing, because he is still a sinner. That is, because at baptism we make a commitment… eternal commitment that we will follow and do His will for the rest of our lives, because we take away our sinful nature. But is a baby even aware of this commitment he made with God? No.
Anyway, I believe we are going off-topic.
edit: by the way: when you say ‘on their behalf’, it means that those people on whom you speak on behalf of have a certain allowance for you to speak on their behalf because they have given their permission; but a baby knows nothing because he acts on instincts. So how can a baby let you speak on his behalf?
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TEPO
Guest
God offers His grace to everyone on earth, but it is true that only some accept the grace and develop it into faith… But when we intercede for someone, we are only asking God to offer them more graces, more “gifts” in an attempt to save them. Grace is like “throwing someone a line” to help them see truth. Who has ever said that they can control ones free-will by interceding? We can only beg for graces.
I believe God can give His almighty grace to even an infant… I believe that even the un-born can recieve the Graces of God. These graces could be like imprints on the soul, guiding the child the rest of its life, out of despair and into the fulfillment of truth. Even if the baby was adopted into a Godless family, it would still seek out and act in truths; if God were to “install” special graces upon the child.
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TEPO
Guest
agapebiblestudy.com
"When one receives the Sacrament of Baptism a supernatural sequence of events takes place which images the life of Christ. See Colossians :9-14 and John 3:3-8; CCC # 628, 977-978."
"When one receives the Sacrament of Baptism a supernatural sequence of events takes place which images the life of Christ. See Colossians :9-14 and John 3:3-8; CCC # 628, 977-978."
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momor
Guest
To all of the non-Catholics posting here:
I would like to know which of you partake of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and/or confess your sins to a successor of the Apostles.
Thanks.
I would like to know which of you partake of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and/or confess your sins to a successor of the Apostles.
Thanks.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
No, those people you mention have already been judged and by all accounts had the capacity to come to Christ of their own accord during the earthly life upon which our judgment is based. An infant does not have this capacity. The infant parallels those who could not come to Christ because of an incapacitation. Christ said to let the children come to Him and I won’t repeat that He provided the means to incorporate an infant in to the body of Christ in a type of circumcision and regeneration. When the Apostles were told to baptize all nations, it’s not qualified. They were not told “baptize everyone–except for the babies.”
Also, physical healing in Scripture is the visible sign of what takes place spiritually. Consider the story of Matthew 9:2-6 when Jesus demonstrates how the physical healing shows what happened unseen in the spiritual sense as well. It’s the story when Jesus heals the man to prove that He healed him spiritually even though they could not see it. Physical healings in Scripture not only convey Christ’s power over physical ailments, but demonstrate what happens to our soul when He heals us. When He shows you a physical healing, He’s also showing you what is taking place spiritually. That’s why Christ is called the doctor (eg. Lk 5:31). He heals sin.
Also, no one is saying we don’t put our faith in Christ, so I needn’t argue against that.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Good resource. Is this the one Steve Ray promotes, do you know?
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Drawmack
Guest
Where does the Bible clearly state that one must confess their sins to a successor of the Apostles?
Thanks
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Scoobyshme
Guest
First of all, where does it say in the Bible that everything we can know about what Jesus taught is IN the Bible? Answer: Nowhere. In fact, it says the opposite. See John 21:25. If we compiled every quote of Jesus in the New Testament into one document, it would be only 15-20 pages long, at most, and take less than two hours to read aloud. Would it be reasonable to think that in Jesus’ three years of ministry that He only spoke for less than two hours? No, hardly! Yet, Jesus commanded the Apostles (and their successors) to teach EVERYTHING that He had taught them (Matt 28:20). So, there’s a gap. The Apostles and their successors are to teach everything, but not everything Jesus taught is in the Bible. So, how can this command be fulfilled? See 2 Thes 2:15 where Paul tells us to hold to BOTH oral tradition (a.k.a., Holy Tradition) and written tradition (Scriptures).
Anyway, back to your original question, see John 20:19 and following. The Apostles are in the upper room and Jesus appears to them. He said, “Peace be with you.” Then it says,
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. 13 The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
Jesus gives them His peace and says that “As the Father has sent Me…” How has the Father sent Jesus? With ALL heavenly authority, including the authority to forgive sins! Remember the Pharisees complaining about Jesus forgiving sins, when they said, “Only God can forgive sins!”? Well, Jesus is God.
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Now, there are only two times, in all Scripture, where God "breathes" on man. Once in Genesis, when He creates Adam, and once in the following passage from John 20:22 where Jesus (God) breathes on the Apostles, and it says,
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This had to be an awfully poignant moment for them. Jesus is doing something big here, as I tell young people. Let's see what the very next passage says...Now let’s recap. Jesus appears, does something special (breathes on them), gives them the Holy Spirit, and then delegates HIS authority to forgive sins to the Apostles! And, from a practical standpoint, how can they forgive anyone’s sins unless they know what sins there are to be forgiven? By the person confessing those sins to them. THIS is the institution of what the Catholic Church calls the Sacrament of Confession.
There’s a good audio that explains Confession in more detail, if you’re interested. You can get it here (it’s an mp3 file):
alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Confession.mp3
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Cristian_B
Guest
I believe that his problem is not that we can confess, but it is why we must confess. The bible tells us to confess our sins, but why to a man? Do I have to confess my sins to a man in order to be forgiven? Is it absolutely necessary?
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momor
Guest
Scooby gave a great answer to this question. Now, please tell us if you eat and drink Christ’s Body and Blood. I know you won’t have any trouble finding this command in the Gospels.
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Scoobyshme
Guest
I’m always curious as to why you Protestants always insist on absolutizing everything. It makes me curious as to whether you guys are like that in the rest of your lives, too. Your view is a strict either/or situation, when in reality, it’s a both/and situation. We should confess straight to God as soon as we sin, although that requires His grace to do so and our cooperation with that grace. We should go to Sacramental Confession because Jesus instituted it FOR us and because we have a certainty that if we are truly repentent and have a firm purpose of amendment, we are really forgiven for our sins.
Anyway, there are things that are “normatively necessary” for salvation, such as baptism, confession of any mortal sins before we die, etc. However, the Church does teach that these are not “absolutes” in the sense that you seem to take them.
For example, if I committed a mortal sin and got in a really bad car wreck and was dying on the side of the road, I could, with God’s grace, say an act of perfect contrition, telling God I was sorry for my sin and asking His forgiveness. IF I was able to do so before I died, I would still have a shot at heaven (probably with Purgatory time on the way). But there is no guarantee, like there is with Confession, that I would be forgiven, because I wouldn’t have any guarantee that my act of contrition was for the right reasons. I may not really be sorry and might be just trying to avoid hell. That’s not sufficient.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
I take it you do not go to men like Matthew, Mark, Luke, Isaiah, etc… for your truth, you only go to God.
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Cristian_B
Guest
Repentance I might say that is a gift from God. We should repent as soon as possible. Those people who say that they will repent on their death beds… they don’'t know that. Because the will of repentance comes from God and is a gift from Him. It is not ours. It is grace. God says that He will destroy the wicked by twisting their own plans. They can’t choose when to repent since the power to repent comes from God. It is a gift.
What I posted has almost nothing to do with what you said. I just felt the need to tell you.
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Scoobyshme
Guest
You’re doing better ChristianB.
That “gift of God” to which you referred, is what we call “grace.” The word “grace” comes from the Latin word “gratis” which means, interestingly enough, “gift.”
So, yes. We cannot repent except by the grace of God. But we can refuse that grace and continue on in our sin, to our demise, if we die in that state.
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Cristian_B
Guest
The problem is that if you keep neglecting God you start to develop an immunity to God’s threats and warnings. You become deaf regarding God. There will be a point in which repentance is impossible for you.You’re doing better ChristianB.
That “gift of God” to which you referred, is what we call “grace.” The word “grace” comes from the Latin word “gratis” which means, interestingly enough, “gift.”
So, yes. We cannot repent except by the grace of God. But we can refuse that grace and continue on in our sin, to our demise, if we die in that state.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic.
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