If protestantism is true ......Martin Luther a prophet ??

[Adamski]

If protestanism is true …
Shouldn’t martin Luther have talked to God like Muhammad or Joseph smith, because basically he was saying God was wrong with his church. So if Luther never had a direct conversation with God such as Muhammad or j. Smith where does his authority come from since sola scriptora is surely a broken system.

 

[theropod]

If protestanism is true …
Shouldn’t martin Luther have talked to God like Muhammad or Joseph smith, because basically he was saying God was wrong with his church. So if Luther never had a direct conversation with God such as Muhammad or j. Smith where does his authority come from since sola scriptora is surely a broken system.

 

[steido01]

If protestanism is true …
Shouldn’t martin Luther have talked to God like Muhammad or Joseph smith, because basically he was saying God was wrong with his church. So if Luther never had a direct conversation with God such as Muhammad or j. Smith where does his authority come from since sola scriptora is surely a broken system.

No Lutheran considers him a prophet. Luther believed, just as every Lutheran does, that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against Christ’s one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. We do not believe in some ‘Great Apostosy’ as Islam or Mormonism might. No Lutheran, including Luther, has ever said God’s church was wrong, only that the people who run it are. This is why the Scriptural concept of an “invisible, yet visible” church is so important to Protestant theology.

As for ‘authority,’ Luther’s was the same as any lowly pastor; the Word of God, rightly preached. The Word of God is anything but a “broken system.”

 

[Adamski]

No Lutheran considers him a prophet. Luther believed, just as every Lutheran does, that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against Christ’s one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. We do not believe in some ‘Great Apostosy’ as Islam or Mormonism might. No Lutheran, including Luther, has ever said God’s church was wrong, only that the people who run it are. This is why the Scriptural concept of an “invisible, yet visible” church is so important to Protestant theology.

As for ‘authority,’ Luther’s was the same as any lowly pastor; the Word of God, rightly preached. The Word of God is anything but a “broken system.”

So if the Catholic Church isn’t wrong protestants need to be part of it, God is a God of order not disunity

 

[steido01]

So if the Catholic Church isn’t wrong protestants need to be part of it, God is a God of order not disunity

Well, that’s where you get into some theological differences. See, Lutherans think that Roman Catholics are part of the invisible/visible “catholic church,” but that the Lutheran church is the fullest, clearest and best visible manifestation of that invisible church on earth. In other words, Lutherans think that they are the catholics, and that Roman Catholics are the misguided schismatics, who just happened to get the house (Rome) in the divorce.

 

[Adamski]

Well, that’s where you get into some theological differences. See, Lutherans think that Roman Catholics are part of the invisible/visible “catholic church,” but that the Lutheran church is the fullest, clearest and best visible manifestation of that invisible church on earth. In other words, Lutherans think that they are the catholics, and that Roman Catholics are the misguided schismatics, who just happened to get the house (Rome) in the divorce.

May be you could tell me where Jesus said to Peter upon this rock that you can’t see I will build my invisible church (Matt 16:18)

 

[steido01]

May be you could tell me where Jesus said to Peter upon this rock that you can’t see I will build my invisible church (Matt 16:18)

No need to argue too much with you there. Certainly, Jesus initially built His church on Peter and his confession. Christ Himself says that there are many in His church who cry out, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?” – yet are not Christian. This is why Peter’s profession of faith is so wonderfully important.

The church is invisible, insofar as there are real, believing Christians in the corporate church, which contains both believers and unbelievers. Only God knows the heart of an individual. Your communion acknowledges this fact.

The church is visible wherever the Sacraments are administered rightly and the Word of God preached clearly (that is, by a called and ordained servant of the Word. Where the bishop and the people gather, there Christ is present, and there is the catholic church).

 

[steido01]

These links might also be helpful in understanding the concept of the invisible church:

1. augustinecollective.org/augustine/visible-invisible-church
2. pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2011/06/church-visible-and-invisible.html

It’s important to bear in mind that theological schools of thought, like Lutheranism, are rarely predicated on a single, wishy-washy point. If you’re looking to ‘disprove’ Lutheranism with some glaring “Gotcha!” point that thousands of intelligent theologians somehow missed in previous centuries, you’re going to be disappointed. Especially since Catholicism and Lutheranism share so very much in common.

 

[phil19034]

These links might also be helpful in understanding the concept of the invisible church:

1. augustinecollective.org/augustine/visible-invisible-church
2. pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2011/06/church-visible-and-invisible.html

It’s important to bear in mind that theological schools of thought, like Lutheranism, are rarely predicated on a single, wishy-washy point. If you’re looking to ‘disprove’ Lutheranism with some glaring “Gotcha!” point that thousands of intelligent theologians somehow missed in previous centuries, you’re going to be disappointed. Especially since Catholicism and Lutheranism share so very much in common.

What do Lutherans do with the crumbs from communion?

 

[steido01]

What do Lutherans do with the crumbs from communion?

In short, treat it with reverence. Luther himself once spilled the cup, so he carefully put it back on the altar, knelt down, and lapped it up like a dog. The congregation burst into tears. On another occasion, a pastor spilled the Blood on the altar and it could not be removed with a purificator, so Luther to an ax and cut out a portion of the altar so it could be burned, in keeping with ancient church reverence for the Body and Blood.

From The Altar Guild Manual: Lutheran Service Book Edition (emphasis mine):

If any of the Lord’s body and blood remains, they can be disposed of in a number of ways. The best way is to consume the remaining elements, since the Lord said, “Take and eat … Take and drink,” and did not provide for anything that was left over. There is historic precedent for reserving the remaining elements against the next communion. The hosts can be stored in a pyx or ciborium (apart from unconsecrated hosts), the blood of the Lord in a suitable cruet or flagon (apart from unconsecrated wine). What remains in the chalice, however, should either be consumed or poured into the piscine or onto the ground, since there may be crumbs or other foreign matter in it. The reserved elements may then be kept in the sacristy or placed on the altar or credence and covered with a white veil. It is un-Lutheran and irreverent to place unused elements in the trash or to pour the remainder of what is in the chalice or flagon into the common drain.

And from the “Theology and Practice of the Lord’s Supper,” as prepared by the LCMS Commission on Theology and Church Relations:
Quote:

B.2.c. Post Communion Reverence
The consecrated elements which remain after all have communed should be treated with reverence. This reverence has been expressed by Lutherans in various ways. Some have followed the ancient practice of burning the bread and pouring the wine upon the earth. Others have established a basin and drain-piscina-specifically for disposal for the wine. The elders or altar guild may also return the consecrated bread and wine to specific containers [a pyx or ciborium, separate from unconsecrated elements] for future sacramental use, or the elders and pastor can consume the remaining elements. All of these practices should be understood properly.

Rev. Will Weedon, LCMS Director of Worship & Chaplain at the LCMS’s Headquarters at the International Center, also has information on his blog.

 

[Regina7]

Which version of Lutheranism are we talking about? Aren’t there 3 sects?

 

[pablope]

No need to argue too much with you there. Certainly, Jesus initially

built His church on Peter and his confession.

So when Peter was executed, the building stopped…somehow…and was corrupted by until the building of the church was transferred to the Lutherans in the 1500s?

The church is visible

 

[pablope]

Which version of Lutheranism are we talking about? Aren’t there 3 sects?

It seems there is more…from what I learned from some European Lutherans…who are much, much different than American Lutherans.

 

[Adamski]

Which version of Lutheranism are we talking about? Aren’t there 3 sects?

Or many more I would say the Elca is each independent of each other

 

[Adamski]

No need to argue too much with you there. Certainly, Jesus initially built His church on Peter and his confession. Christ Himself says that there are many in His church who cry out, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?” – yet are not Christian. This is why Peter’s profession of faith is so wonderfully important.

The church is invisible, insofar as there are real, believing Christians in the corporate church, which contains both believers and unbelievers. Only God knows the heart of an individual. Your communion acknowledges this fact.

The church is visible wherever the Sacraments are administered rightly and the Word of God preached clearly (that is, by a called and ordained servant of the Word. Where the bishop and the people gather, there Christ is present, and there is the catholic church).

Please tell me about the where the invisible church is in the bible

 

[MaryT777]

Which version of Lutheranism are we talking about? Aren’t there 3 sects?

That is the problem with discussing Lutheranism, you have to take into consideration the synod the person is in because the ELCA for example is much different than the LCMS.

Mary.

 

[steido01]

Which version of Lutheranism are we talking about? Aren’t there 3 sects?

I can only respond for Lutherans who hold to the historic confessional documents of the Lutheran reformation, or “Confessional Lutherans” (i.e. LCMS, WELS, ELS, other church bodies of the International Lutheran Conference and the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference).

I cannot speak for mainline liberal Protestant bodies like the ELCA, which claim the Lutheran name but do not practice Lutheran teachings.

 

[steido01]

So when Peter was executed, the building stopped…somehow…and was corrupted by until the building of the church was transferred to the Lutherans in the 1500s?

No. As I said already, Lutherans do not believe in any sort of “Great Apostasy.” Believers have always existed in the Church, and Christ has promised that this will persist. We claim the same fathers that you do. We read them, and teach from them, and we follow that ancient faith - without new and novel doctrines which we believe were developed later by humans.

According to whose interpretation?

St. Ignatious of Antioch? I was paraphrasing him. But if that’s not good enough for you, look to Christ, who I already quoted. And if He isn’t good enough for you, look to your Magisterium, which says plainly that the church is both visible and invisible: catholicbridge.com/catholic/vatican_says_protestants_not_churches.php

Well…this begs the question…since Lutherans ditched the 5 sacraments, and has ditched bishops,and confesses the bishop of Rome as the anti-christ…so how can you say the catholic church is present in the Lutherans?

We haven’t “ditched” anything. Baptism, Confession and the Lord’s Supper are still the Means of Grace instituted by Christ and accompanied with a sign, by which we receive Salvation (Sacraments). We still practice Marriage, Confirmation, Ordination, and Anointing the Sick, though we usually don’t count them as sacraments because we are not saved by them alone, but they have power because we are already Baptized and redeemed. We don’t really care about the number of Sacraments. We care more about how they are used.

 

[Dorothy]

If protestanism is true …
Shouldn’t martin Luther have talked to God like Muhammad or Joseph smith, because basically he was saying God was wrong with his church. So if Luther never had a direct conversation with God such as Muhammad or j. Smith where does his authority come from since sola scriptora is surely a broken system.

Luther had a right to be upset with the corruption that he saw.

However, renewal could have started within.

St. Francis of Assisi, and all the saints, help to renew the Church from within it, by allowing themselves to become sanctified.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Well, that’s where you get into some theological differences. See, Lutherans think that Roman Catholics are part of the invisible/visible “catholic church,” but that the Lutheran church is the fullest, clearest and best visible manifestation of that invisible church on earth. In other words, Lutherans think that they are the catholics, and that Roman Catholics are the misguided schismatics, who just happened to get the house (Rome) in the divorce.

So was the Catholic Church in the west Prior to Luther the fullest expression of the true Church?