If push comes to shove I choose conscience over Church teaching

[goodcatholic]

I know it is important to respect the teachings of the Church. Obey everything in the catechism. If we approach it as “it is there to help us, not to control us”, then I find that much more healthy.
If I value my conscience highly, does that make me more Protestant than Catholic?
I’ll try to give an example. “Don’t lie.” To live in a secular world, to survive in a secular world, you realise that bending “the truth” is necessary. Now some will argue that have to be truthful, you have to follow the letter of the law. In that case, if you are at someone’s deathbed, you might say “you look terrible today”. Is that helpful? No its not. I just think being 'totally honest" is way too idealistic. The important thing is self-awareness. “ok I’m bending the truth here because…”
Know your intentions. If your intentions are to manipulate or gain money or nasty, then of course you shouldn’t lie. If your intentions are to create a positive vibe or save someone pain or even to humour them, I see no reason, in telling a “white” lie.
But it is not just lying. I think we need to dig deep often. Not just “oh what is the rule here? forgive …ok forgive.” that is kind of superficial in my way of thinking. We need to pray on the spot for discernment. No doubt someone will raise the notion of “informed conscience”. yes I agree.
I respect Church teachings but I don’t see a need to follow them to the letter of the law all the time. The spirit of the law is more important too.

 

[goodcatholic]

That kind of dogma is why I prefer my conscience.

 

[goodcatholic]

I can tell by your style of communication, that we are not going to hit it off. If I don’t respond to any more of your posts, you will know why.

 

[goodcatholic]

There are some non-negotiables I admit. But some are open to interpretation. God gave us a brain. He doesn’t want us to be robots.
I see the Catechism as a guide, not a rule-book.

 

[otrrl]

The idea of lying to a dying person bothers me. We all, especially Catholics, should have no fear of death, when it comes. I thin it’s different somewhat with children. We can be evasive with people who are terrified. Just being with them should be reassuring.

I just turned 69 and I have lots of medical problems – my death certificate could be made out in advance.

Jews have a tradition of reciting the Shema three times a day and at death, when they know it is certain. “hear O Israel the LORD is God, the LORD alone.” It is the “pledge of allegiance” in this monotheistic faith.

Yeah, sure, int this modern world, I got in a lot of trouble from time to time by telling the truth. Jesus says that people like the darkness, but He is the Light that has come into the world.

The “Church’s teaching” is the teaching of Christ. He who hears you hears me.

Yes, it’s hard to be a car salesman, isn’t it. It will be hard on those who steal and cheat, especially the poor.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

I think I understand what you’re saying. Of course you wouldn’t tell someone dying that they look terrible…you would use charity and love and give them comfort instead. Being honest does not mean you say everything that pops into our minds!

If Nazis showed up to my door looking for the Jews I am hiding, of course I am going to lie. That would be self-defense and protecting those I have under my care. It would be a gross violation to just give up innocents to certain harm. And my “lie” wouldn’t be sinful in the least.

Even the Church allows for self-defense when threatened, even up to the point of taking a life if necessary. War is allowed under the right circumstances. So violence is not “always” wrong.

Some people really are focused on the rules and are very legalistic about keeping them. We must do our best to allow the Holy Spirit to guide us in all things. As you said, use your brain and a well-formed conscience. And then say “Oops…sorry, God…I messed up again. Fill me with your love for so-and-so,” whenever necessary.

Even Jesus “appeared” to break the rules often. He followed a higher Law, a rule of Love, that went way beyond the old covenant’s legalism.

 

[Gab123]

Don’t lie.” To live in a secular world, to survive in a secular world, you realise that bending “the truth” is necessary.

We know who the father of lies is, so when we choose to lie we are choosing to not tell the truth, You could simply keep your mouth shut…

 

[lilypadrees]

If you feel the need to justify lying, or as you call it, “bending the truth,” that doesn’t say much for your character or your conscience. My maternal grandmother stressed honesty above all else. You can spare someone’s feelings while still being honest. You don’t have to “bend the truth.”

There is never any justification for lying. If you can’t be honest, then you are untrustworthy.

 

[Dan_Defender]

A conscience is not an infallible property. It must be well formed over time. It is wrong to assume that the Catechism and conscience are opposed to each other.

 

[goodcatholic]

Even Jesus “appeared” to break the rules often. He followed a higher Law, a rule of Love, that went way beyond the old covenant’s legalism.

That’s right.
The thing is , people love rules. It simplifies things and they feel more secure. Relying on your conscience is too vague, too scary.

 

[goodcatholic]

If you feel the need to justify lying, or as you call it, “bending the truth,” that doesn’t say much for your character or your conscience.

You’ve justified being judgemental towards me on here, on more than one occasion.

 

[goodcatholic]

It is wrong to assume that the Catechism and conscience are opposed to each other.

You would be advised to read my posts more carefully. Perhaps with an informed conscience.

 

[Gab123]

Relying on your conscience is too vague, too scary.

A conscience has to be formed in truth through the teachings of Christ as He speaks through his Church. But a conscience can be corrupted, suppressed or killed. You can rationalize anything you want, and people do it all the time, the problem is that you end=d up fooling yourself. As for Church teaching vs conscience, Jesus said: “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

 

[una_ecclesia]

you might say “you look terrible today”. Is that helpful? No its not. I just think being 'totally honest" is way too idealistic.

Refraining from saying something that may be true is not the same as telling a lie. Not sure if this was a good example or not.

 

[jcrichton]

I respect Church teachings but I don’t see a need to follow them to the letter of the law all the time. The spirit of the law is more important too.

From the Opening it seems that you have a tremendously instructed conscience… Luther followed his conscience, see where that got us?

Jesus did not repudiate the Pharisees’ and Sadducees’ Knowledge of Scriptures, He rejected their circumvention of God’s Commandments:

1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. 3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. (St. Matthew 23)

So if our consciences are ill-instructed we will follow those who Jesus rebuked as failures while still upholding their Sacred Teachings.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[gracepoole]

you have become more or less a “loose cannon” here shipmate

you want attention/responses; i guess you are lonely

tough sh*t

man up ; find a girlfriend

many lonely catholc widows out there

Whoa! I admit to thinking some of the same in recent weeks but… I mean…

 

[on_the_hill]

In Colonial America, Jesuit missionary priests passed themselves off as traveling salesmen, carpenters, tinsmiths, etc. in order to avoid anti-Catholic trouble.

Were they guilty of lying? As they established Catholic churches, did the ends justify the means?

 

[goodcatholic]

Luther followed his conscience, see where that got us?

So to your logic. Therefore none of us should follow our conscience because Luther followed his.

 

[jcrichton]

I can tell by your style of communication, that we are not going to hit it off. If I don’t respond to any more of your posts, you will know why.

Yes, we all know why: you want to sound of with hollowood’s spirituality and claim being enlightened.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

The potentially fatal caveat is that your conscience must be well-formed. To prefer the self over Christ’s indefectible Church is asking for trouble, IMO. Rather, study those teachings and examine the reasoning behind each one. You will find that, ultimately, love is at the core of each.