If religions like Buddhism and Hinduism came before Judaism and Christianity, then why is Christianity the one true religion?

[Bezant]

There’s ZERO evidence that Arabs or any of the non-Jewish Semites even knew who Abraham or Ishmael was…

Have you checked? I highly doubt this.

But even if there is no evidence, must any possibility of direct or indirect cultural contact between different Semitic tribes therefore not exist?

…so the idea that they could trace their ancestry to him is ridiculous to me and only sounds like something Moh’d came up with to connect himself with the Abrahamic faiths so as to claim continuity therefrom/therewith.

None of these names or lineages are traceable, so it’s surprising that you assume Judaism’s claim to descent from Isaac is credible.

 

[Bezant]

There’s ZERO evidence that Arabs or any of the non-Jewish Semites even knew who Abraham or Ishmael was…

They couldn’t have had their own traditions about some character like Abraham, or heard about him through trade or the Jewish tribes that had settled in Arabia well before Muhammed?

Even if we have no evidence for something, must it therefore not exist?

…so the idea that they could trace their ancestry to him is ridiculous to me…

And Jews’ claim of descent through Isaac isn’t? None of these names and lineages are traceable, except on the genetic record, which tells us nothing about someone named Abraham of Ur.

…and only sounds like something Moh’d came up with to connect himself with the Abrahamic faiths so as to claim continuity therefrom/therewith.

So?

 

[Marybeloved]

They couldn’t have had their own traditions about some character like Abraham, or heard about him through trade or the Jewish tribes that had settled in Arabia well before Muhammed?

So how would their hearing about him from the Jews translate to their being able to trace their origin from him? I’m not sure you even followed my line of thought before typing this.

Even if we have no evidence for something, must it therefore not exist?

Who said so? I said why assume it exists when there’s no evidence for it before Mohammed, (some several thousand years after Abraham) came up with it? In what universe does that translate to “it mustn’t exist?”

And Jews’ claim of descent through Isaac isn’t? None of these names and lineages are traceable, except on the genetic record, which tells us nothing about someone named Abraham of Ur.

seriously? Abraham as a personage originates in the Jewish tradition. He is part of Jewish tradition from the beginning. We only speak of an Abraham because the Jews kept a tradition that traced their roots back to him- The Arabs until Mohammed made that claim did not. I really don’t see what could be so hard to get about the clear difference between the two…

So?

If you don’t see that then I suggest not bothering with the conversation till you actually understand what I said- Unless you were just looking for an argument for its own sake, of course, which it seems you were.

 

[Marybeloved]

I’m almost certain it was a tradition that preceded Islam itself.

As for Abraham, he was a Chaldean, if I’m not mistaken.

What’s a Chaldean? I assume it has some connection to the Arabs? My point is, why not assume that Abraham was from the Arab peoples (he came from Ur in Arabia) than assume that all Arabs are descendent from him? I’m sure Arabs must have predated Abraham…Abraham lived some two thousand to 1500 years before Our Lord, no? It could be possible that some Arabs (who are many groups and peoples, not just one) are descendent from Abraham, but Arabs as a whole? Seems unlikely. I remember reading about Genetic studies that found very close similarities between ethnic Jews and Arabs who live around Palestine and in some places in Iraq and Saudi Arabia; But great disparities between Jews (and these Arabs who are closer in genes to them) with other Arabs, greater even than the disparities between the Jews and distant Semites, like the Ethiopians.

Looked it up. The Book of Jubilees, an extra biblical book which predates Islam, makes mention of this. It is possibly where Mohammed took the idea from, although not necessarily.

Have a link? That sure sounds interesting. And I agree that if the idea was there before, that’s probably where some Arabs (and eventually Mohammed) would get the idea.

 

[grandfather]

I’ve always wanted to know this.

I can never give a good answer to my non-christians friends about this.

In John 10 Jesus refers to Himself as the Good Shepherd. He says His sheep know His voice and follow Him. Those who are not of His flock will not follow Him. He leads His sheep. He lays down His life for His sheep. And the Father gives Him power to take it up again.

He says all who came before me were thieves and robbers, but His sheep will not follow the voice of a stranger.

To whom was Jesus referring when He said all who came before Him were thieves and robbers?

Perhaps your non-Christian friends are not of His flock and that is why they do not hear and follow His voice. They do not believe Him or His words. They do not recognize His voice. They are not of His people, the people He calls to Himself with His voice. They follow other voices.

 

[DennisTate]

I’ve always wanted to know this.

I can never give a good answer to my non-christians friends about this.

You may like what the being of light said to Rene Turner during her brush with death:

near-death.com/experiences/judaism01.html

I awoke from my coma slowly, over several days, half dreamed memories of familiar voices and glimpses of faces. The clearest moments were several occasions where I would awake from deep sleep to find a nurse with a syringe and refuse any drugs. I had no idea why! I had three lots of surgery to repair my face, skull, eye socket. I left the hospital with pain, double vision, anosmia, and damage to the eighth cranial nerve. It left me with nausea and a disturbed balance. I was for two years angry at G-d for sending me back in such torment with a task to do with no clues or instructions - only one thing: a clear message I have no idea how to pass on, which is:

“It is time to live according to your beliefs, whatever they may be - to put your house in order - for the end times are upon us!”

I personally believe that the Being of Light who meets with people during a brush with death is the God of Abraham who inspired the Catholic Bible:

[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls.

drbo.org/chapter/30006.htm

drbo.org/chapter/54012.htm

I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), [4] That he was caught up into paradise, and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter. [5] For such an one I will glory; but for myself I will glory nothing, but in my infirmities.

 

[Publisher]

The exact answer isn’t that clear-cut–some will say with Abraham’s covenant with God, and others will say in after Israel’s exodus in Egypt, in the Sinai.

The Hebrew religion began prior to Abraham…it was thru Abraham that the “Most High God” was recognized as the god above all other gods. Israel did not believe their god was the ONLY god to exist…just the god they were to worship…He was their God…El Elyon…El Shaddai… was more tribal than the One Universal Creator.

After Judah returned from captivitity did Judaism begin…they then were called “Jews” and thru the prophets a shift began claiming “Before me was no god formed, nor after me…”

Only then was other gods seen as “false”…in the sense of “not existing”…before that…the Hebrew God was one among many…just the “Most High God” in a pantheon of lesser gods of which Israel was to have nothing to do with.

Prior to the Captivity Israel was “henotheist”…'monotheism" was a rather late development in Hebrew/Jewish thought…took it’s form around 600BCE.

On a side note…Melchizedec and Jethro were also worshippers of the “Most High God”…Abraham was not the only one to conceive of such a God…El Elyon…El Shaddai had his “roots” in ancient Caanan.

 

[Nine_Two]

What’s a Chaldean? I assume it has some connection to the Arabs? My point is, why not assume that Abraham was from the Arab peoples (he came from Ur in Arabia) than assume that all Arabs are descendent from him? I’m sure Arabs must have predated Abraham…Abraham lived some two thousand to 1500 years before Our Lord, no? It could be possible that some Arabs (who are many groups and peoples, not just one) are descendent from Abraham, but Arabs as a whole? Seems unlikely. I remember reading about Genetic studies that found very close similarities between ethnic Jews and Arabs who live around Palestine and in some places in Iraq and Saudi Arabia; But great disparities between Jews (and these Arabs who are closer in genes to them) with other Arabs, greater even than the disparities between the Jews and distant Semites, like the Ethiopians.

I’m not aware of any theory that places Ur in Arabia. Chaldeans are one of the Semitic groups you mentioned in your post.

Have a link? That sure sounds interesting. And I agree that if the idea was there before, that’s probably where some Arabs (and eventually Mohammed) would get the idea.

Jubilees 20:11-13

ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/jubilee/20.htm

 

[Daralharb]

Considering that the thread title is totally false in truth, I find it hilarious that you people are arguing over something such as this.

Buddhism was started around 460BC. Hinduism goes back to around 1700BC-1100BC, depending on what you considering the starting, and even that is just based on certain texts from which they pull modern Hindu understanding; it doesn’t mean that’s the official “founding” as it is nothing more than indus Valley animism and paganism with a possible mix of interaction with the nephilim/rephaim post-Flood (which still existed after due to an impure bloodline in one of Noah’s daughter in law). Jacob was born in around 2000 BC.

Jacob is Abraham’s grandson, obviously, and of course, the progeny of the Abrahamic covenant’s very own sacrificial archetype of Jesus- Isaac.

Do you people just assume that ascetic lifestyle and fantastical stories = older? If that’s the case, homelessness is the oldest religion in the world, and also is subject to a pantheon of demons and instructions therein.

To espouse such a claim is to apply an entire concept to the entire world outside of the structure of what is actually claimed by Christianity in fulfilling Judaism- Natural/Moral Law and the interplay of fallen angels in the world, God’s Chosen People, and the fulfillment of all in the Chosen People, through Christ, and through the fulfillment of the Gentiles, the fulfillment of the Jewish people- for they rejected their original purpose, are blinded to it, and shall see again.

That is all.

 

[Sufjon]

If religions like Buddhism and Hinduism came before Judaism and Christianity, then why is Christianity the one true religion?I’ve always wanted to know this.

I can never give a good answer to my non-christians friends about this.

The issue isn’t always knowing the right answer, but in knowing the right question. Perhaps you are asking the wrong question. Christianity could have a certain appeal to these people if they had cause to believe in it any more than what they already believe in. From a practical, philosophical or spiritual perspective, it would be a hard idea to advance to someone who wasn’t raised to believe that they had one life in which to get it right, with the threat of unending hell unleashed on them if they get it wrong. We simply don’t believe that and really have no reason to other than your scripture vs ours, and where does that sort of discussion lead? Nowhere but hard feelings, which is not what we seek. In fact, upon reading your scriptures a Hindu or Buddhist can find as many references to point to more than one life in them as you can find that point to one. Much has been written on this, but that’s another thread and it’s a chasm that won’t soon be bridged between eastern and western thought. Most Hindus believe that whatever path you are on is where you are supposed to be, and if you are on the wrong path, you will at some point end up on the right one over the course of many lifetimes, because unlike in Christianity, we believe that all souls are precious to God, and what is precious to God is never lost to God. Therefore, all souls return to God at some point. Why would they trade that idea for a more capricious iteration of God?

So, perhaps the question is, why would I - someone who believes that God will under all circumstances not fail to have me as His own, trade that belief for one that does not offer that same unconditional guarantee of God’s , wherein our scriptures He tells us "no effort in finding me is ever wasted. You will attain me " I cannot see a God who created this universe and possibly many others not being able to provide this to that which He loves. This is why a very small percentage of India has ever been penetrated by Christian conversion, and is why very little ever will. They may or may not accept Jesus as an Avatar, but it is unlikely that we could ever read the same meanings into His life and words as you. You can try, but it’s just not leading anywhere. If you tell most Hindus that Christianity is the only true religion, I can almost guarantee the answer you invariably get will be something like “Good - stick with it then!”

Your friend,
Sufjon

PS - Stick with it! My God won’t fail you, nor will He let you fail

 

[Marybeloved]

I’m not aware of any theory that places Ur in Arabia.

Sorry, I believe I confused Job with Abraham. It’s Job who is usually regarded as having been in Arabia, and Abraham Iraq.

Chaldeans are one of the Semitic groups you mentioned in your post.

So I suppose that these Chaldeans are the ones who inhabited Ur, which is why Abraham is regarded as one, right? Interesting- But I still don’t get why the entire peoples called Arabs are regarded as having come from Abraham, as opposed to only some of them.

Jubilees 20:11-13

ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/jubilee/20.htm

Thanks.

 

[Vouthon]

I’ve always wanted to know this.

I can never give a good answer to my non-christians friends about this.

My dear brother

A lot of people misunderstand that Christianity has always existed. There is only one religion of God from the beginning of the world and unto its end. All of the righteous men of the OT were spiritually joined to the Church through faith in the Christ to come. Socrates was spiritually joined to the Church through following reason - the dictates of his conscience - and therefore St Justin Martyr calls him a Christian. Even now, there are many people outside of Holy Mother Church in body who belong to her in reality, heart and soul.

Different “religions” is an illusion. As Pope John Paul II said: “You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions…From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Council document speaks of this unity and links it with the current trend to bring humanity closer together through the resources available to our civilization. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties…”

Saint Augustine explained this best and its my signature quote:

“…That which is now known as the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist; from the beginning of the human race until the time when Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed began to be called Christianity…For this reason, I said: ‘In our times, this is the Christian religion,’ not because it did not exist in Former times, but because it had received this name in later times…”

- Saint Augustine of Hippo, Retractions, Book One, Part 12, "One Book on the True Religion.

And so any righteous men of ancient times who lived according to “reason” were members of the Church and therefore of the One, Eternal Religion (Christianity):

“We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word [or reason] of whom all mankind partakes. Those who lived reasonably [with the Word] are Christians, even though they have been called atheists. For example: among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus and men like them; among the barbarians [non-Greeks], Abraham…and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious…All truth wherever it is found belongs to us as Christians”

- Justin Martyr

Read:

“…We can see this from what St. Paul tells us in Romans 2. 14-16. There Paul says that Spirit of God, who is of course the same as the Spirit of Christ, writes His law in the hearts of all. Those who accept that law, may not know that what they are accepting is the Spirit of Christ. Still, they really accept that Spirit of Christ, if they do what He tells them in their hearts to do. So they have what we could all an implicit faith. So, because they accept the Spirit of Christ — without knowing that that is what they are doing — they can even be called Christians. For St. Justin the Martyr, around 150 A.D., in his First Apology (46) said that many in the past who even might have seemed to be atheists, were really Christians, because they followed the Divine Word. That is what we have just described…”

• EWTN

Much love in Christ

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

If Judism didn’t start with Adam and Eve than when did it start?

A person that we call a “Jew” today is a descendant of Abraham via Isaac via Jacob. You may recall that God changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Gen 32:27-28).

 

[Jaboshua]

I’m not aware of any theory that places Ur in Arabia. Chaldeans are one of the Semitic groups you mentioned in your post.

They were Babylonians, weren’t they?

 

[zz912]

Considering that the thread title is totally false in truth, I find it hilarious that you people are arguing over something such as this.

Buddhism was started around 460BC. Hinduism goes back to around 1700BC-1100BC, depending on what you considering the starting, and even that is just based on certain texts from which they pull modern Hindu understanding; it doesn’t mean that’s the official “founding” as it is nothing more than indus Valley animism and paganism with a possible mix of interaction with the nephilim/rephaim post-Flood (which still existed after due to an impure bloodline in one of Noah’s daughter in law). Jacob was born in around 2000 BC.

Yep. Your response to your friends asking this question is to ask them for some proof that Buddhism and Hinduism are older. They aren’t.

 

[Sufjon]

Yep. Your response to your friends asking this question is to ask them for some proof that Buddhism and Hinduism are older. They aren’t.

The earliest evidence for prehistoric religion in India date back to the late Neolithic in the early Harappan period (5500–2600 BCE), however, it has developed and evolved over time. It can also be said that Abrahamic faiths have ancient roots, while not as old, but they too have evolved over time. In both cases, the iterations of these traditions that we have today are built on these older foundations, but recognizably different in many aspects in their current form. In and of itself, the age of these traditions has no bearing on their veracity and doesn’t well serve a meaningful dialog from a practical or logical perspective. Moreover, the topic of there being one true religion serves no spiritual purpose, because in fact there is no hard evidence whatsoever for what any of them believe. The measure of what is true in a religion is the dimension of spirituality and meaning it brings to one’s life. As far back as we are able to see, humankind has intuited the existence of a broader consciousness that pervades all of nature - an underlying current of perception that we share with all living things. It brings about a sense that our true being lies somewhere beyond the realm of sentient experience which is confined to the physical world in which our senses and mind operate. Because we are oriented toward the experience of the physical world of sentience and mind, we have limited ourselves to the tool kit that realm offers for reasoning. Operating in that arena, we are left unable to verify what we perceive to be outside of, or beyond it.

If, however, we condition ourselves to listen to, and be in tune with that underlying current of consciousness we all perceive, the light that is lit by no other light starts to break through the cracks in the barrier our minds have built between the world of that which causes and the world of that which is caused. We are from the realm of that which causes, or all pervading consciousness. We know that, because we feel it, and we always have. We always fall short in proving it, because we endeavor to do so from the world that is caused.

But there are underlying truths to these religions we have formed, and they share certain core commonalities, which points to a common source. And whatever the ideology or practices that have developed for each, love of oneself, love for other people, and love for that which made us is the central theme, and this is because one is evident in the other. One who knows this begins to realize that they are evident in one another because they are truly a part of one another, which means that God is evident and expressed in all things, which is why it is especially important to love one another. One who applies themselves to this task above all others has achieved the ultimate goal of all faith traditions and has nothing more to satisfy. Arguing about whose religion is the one true one is the one is in fact one of the true ways in which to wander off the path of this realization, and serves a Catholic no better than it does a Buddhist or a Hindu.

Hey, I was listening to this song while I was writing this:

youtube.com/watch?v=MHmQhvuIFSc

Just a pretty song.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Vouthon]

A beautiful, spirit-filled and very wise post brother Sufjon

Thank you very much for gracing us with your wisdom!

“Divine truth should be a means towards union, mutual understanding and peaceful living,and not a reason for quarrels and division.”

- Pope Paul VI (Ecclesiam Suam n. 32), 1964

“…Diversity in creation and cultures is the language of God; the radical unity of the opposites. In God absolute unity is absolute multiplicity. It is you O God who is being sought in various religions in various ways and named with various names. For you remain as you are to all incomprehensible and inexpressible. When you will graciously grant it then sword, jealous hatred and evil will cease and all will come to know that there is but one religion in the variety of religious faiths…”

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401-1464)

“…If there is only one language, people [of different faiths] will understand one another, and from this understanding they will love one another and adopt from one another similar customs, which will create concord among them…Through the participation of one people with another there will be love and concord…For just as we have one God, one Creator, one Lord, we should also have one faith, one religion…one manner of loving and honouring God and we should love and help one another, and make it so that between us there be no difference …] which causes us to be enemies with one another and to be at war, killing one another and falling captive to one another. And this war, death and servitude prevent us from giving the praise, reverence and honour we owe to God every day of our life…[And so] all men might be brought together, that they might have understanding, and love one another, and agree in the service of God…Let Christians who are well schooled and proficient in the Arabic language go to Tunis to demonstrate the truth of their faith and let Muslims who are well schooled come to the kingdom of Sicily to discuss their faith with Christian scholars. By acting in this way, maybe, there can be peace between Christians and Muslims, when in the whole world the situation will take effect that neither Christians want to destroy Muslims nor Muslims want to destroy Christians…”

- Blessed Ramon Llull (1232 – ca. 1315), Catholic mystic, philosopher,
logician and Franciscan missionary

 

[Sufjon]

A beautiful, spirit-filled and very wise post brother Sufjon

Thank you very much for gracing us with your wisdom!

“Divine truth should be a means towards union, mutual understanding and peaceful living,and not a reason for quarrels and division.”

- Pope Paul VI (Ecclesiam Suam n. 32), 1964

“…Diversity in creation and cultures is the language of God; the radical unity of the opposites. In God absolute unity is absolute multiplicity. It is you O God who is being sought in various religions in various ways and named with various names. For you remain as you are to all incomprehensible and inexpressible. When you will graciously grant it then sword, jealous hatred and evil will cease and all will come to know that there is but one religion in the variety of religious faiths…”

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401-1464)

“…If there is only one language, people [of different faiths] will understand one another, and from this understanding they will love one another and adopt from one another similar customs, which will create concord among them…Through the participation of one people with another there will be love and concord…For just as we have one God, one Creator, one Lord, we should also have one faith, one religion…one manner of loving and honouring God and we should love and help one another, and make it so that between us there be no difference …] which causes us to be enemies with one another and to be at war, killing one another and falling captive to one another. And this war, death and servitude prevent us from giving the praise, reverence and honour we owe to God every day of our life…[And so] all men might be brought together, that they might have understanding, and love one another, and agree in the service of God…Let Christians who are well schooled and proficient in the Arabic language go to Tunis to demonstrate the truth of their faith and let Muslims who are well schooled come to the kingdom of Sicily to discuss their faith with Christian scholars. By acting in this way, maybe, there can be peace between Christians and Muslims, when in the whole world the situation will take effect that neither Christians want to destroy Muslims nor Muslims want to destroy Christians…”

- Blessed Ramon Llull (1232 – ca. 1315), Catholic mystic, philosopher,
logician and Franciscan missionary

Thank you so much for the kind words Vouthon! BTW - I am glad to have you as a friend, and I am still reading your notes. It will take me a while to fully digest all their meaning, and I surely appreciate your insight.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Vouthon]

The first Covenant with God and man was Adam’s. The next was Noah’s, then Abraham’s, then Moses’ then David’s then the fulfillment of all past covenants in Christ in the New and Everlasting Covenant.

I may be missing a few but Judaism was the continuation of many prior covenants and so certainly not the first expression of God’s Religion.

Amen! Precisely my dear brother

The Vatican document “Dialogue and Proclamation” published in 1991 explains:

“…The early tradition shows a remarkable openness. A number of Church Fathers take up the sapiential tradition reflected in the New Testament. In particular, writers of the second century and the first part of the third century such as Justin, Iranaeus and Clement of Alexandria, either explicitly or in an equivalent way, speak about the “seeds” sown by the Word of God in the nations. Thus it can be said that for them, prior to and outside the Christian dispensation, God has already, in an incomplete way, manifested himself. This manifestation of the Logos is an adumbration of the full revelation in Jesus Christ to which it points…History becomes salvation history, inasmuch as through it God progressively manifests himself and communicates with humankind. This process of divine manifestation and communication reaches its climax in the incarnation of the Son of God in Jesus Christ. For this reason,** Irenaeus distinguishes four “covenants” given by God to the human race: in Adam, in Noah, in Moses, and in Jesus Christ**. The same patristic current, whose importance is not to be underestimated, may be said to culminate in Augustine who in his later works stressed the universal presence and influence of the mystery of Christ even before the Incarnation. In fulfillment of his plan of salvation, God, in his Son, has reached out to the whole of humankind. Thus, in a certain sense, Christianity already exists “at the beginning of the human race”…”

- DIALOGUE AND PROCLAMATION (PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE), 1991

In addition the Catholic Church recognizes the Covenant of God with Father Abraham bringing the total number of Biblical covenants to five

 

[Vouthon]

Thank you so much for the kind words Vouthon! BTW - I am glad to have you as a friend, and I am still reading your notes. It will take me a while to fully digest all their meaning, and I surely appreciate your insight.

Your friend
Sufjon

Namaste my dear brother! I too am very happy to have you as a friend and spiritual brother.

Much love and peace to you in Christ!