If Rome is wrong, where do you go?

[abcd]

We do not look to Rome or even to Allah. We must look the Bible for all of our answers.2 Tim 3:16

Matthew 16:19 tells us that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. This clearly has to be the same kingdom that Jesus later told Pilate “was not of this world”. So what kingdom did these keys open and where is it. First we must look at Peter’s ministry of presenting the first sermon, presenting the gospel for the first time and announcing that the way into the kingdom (heaven) was now open. Besides preaching the first sermon to the Jews and opening the way for them he also opened the door to the gentiles through his going to Cornelius. This privilege (not authority over the other apostles) was give to Peter based on his confession that Jesus was Lord and Son of God. The Church is not the kingdom, as is based on what Jesus said :"not of this world”. It is a spiritual realm entered in by the instructions given to the apostles as keys. And not to Peter only as in Matthew 16:19 but to all the disciples as shown in 18:18 as well. Peter through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit announced the way to salvation. The door was opened. The keys were used. Once a door is opened; one no longer needs keys.

There was and is no need to pass on the keys to anyone else unless you are going to change the opening procedure that Peter has already established by Spiritual inspiration. These were not physical keys. These were not transferable keys (no where in scripture are the keys seen as transferable) This was the information man needed to be saved and enter the kingdom “not of this world”. Just as Peter said how one could enter, throughout his ministry he also said what would keep people out. Thus the promise of what he opened and shut would remain, what he bound and loosed would hold true.

 

[dessert]

On this we are fully agreed. Christ is not the invisible man.

And whether one sees the Latin church as a severed limb, a gangerous limb, a sick limb, or a healthy limb, it is undoubtly visibly belongs to that Body.

Isa please don’t leave the Catholic Church because of the Latin, or you will be like leaving the body. Don’t give it all up because of Latin.

 

[abcd]

From a strictly scriptural point of view Ephesisans 2:20 mentions ‘the prophets’ as part of that foundation right alongside the Apostles. Are you really suggesting that these ‘prophets’, whether OT or otherwise, are exactly as significant as the Apostles to whom alone Christ gave the power to bind and loose heaven? Of course not.

So also, among the Apostles, the other 11 are not as significant as Peter to whom alone Christ gave the Keys of the Kingdom, and the task of feeding the lambs and sheep and whom ***alone ***He actually NAMES ‘Rock’! Why not call them ALL ‘Cephases’ if they are equally as important as each other?

As for infallibility - it’s not exactly rocket science to figure out that His Church can’t at one and the same time be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit and capable of teaching error. So clearly the Apostles were infallible.

And clearly - as Jesus gave the Apostles free reign to bind and loose heaven, so the idea of passing on their powers in their fullness to their successors must be valid - endorsed by heaven itself, since Acts shows them choosing a replacement for Judas.

Why do this if it was unnecessary for the Apostles to have successors to carry on their work? Was Matthias treated as any the less an Apostle (or Paul for that matter) even though they weren’t of the original 12? Not a bit.

You have missed the whole point and go off the track. That way you don’t have to answer the question. This is typical.

Keys are something that opens something else. In the case of Eliakim it opened the way for his authority over Israel (albeit temporary). In the case of the lawyers it opened the information needed to please God and in the case of Peter it opened the information needed to enter salvation. The information since Peter has not changed, the way into salvation is the same today as it was then. It has even been written down (the scriptures) for any willing to read it. So what gets passed on? Where does it say it can be passed on? Actually the literal Greek shows keys as something that locks rather than opens but both opening and closing are implied here and in the three references in Revelation.

 

[LilyM]

You have missed the whole point and go off the track. That way you don’t have to answer the question. This is typical.

Keys are something that opens something else. In the case of Eliakim it opened the way for his authority over Israel (albeit temporary). In the case of the lawyers it opened the information needed to please God and in the case of Peter it opened the information needed to enter salvation. The information since Peter has not changed, the way into salvation is the same today as it was then. It has even been written down (the scriptures) for any willing to read it. So what gets passed on? Where does it say it can be passed on? Actually the literal Greek shows keys as something that locks rather than opens but both opening and closing are implied here and in the three references in Revelation.

You’re the one missing the point and going off track now. Did I only mention the Keys? Surely I didn’t, because they’re not the only claim to authority Peter has.

Are there no more sheep and lambs to be fed? No more building of the Church to be done? No more need for its foundation Rock? No more battering of the gates of Hell to be done with that same Rock then? We need Peter today just as much as we did in 34 AD.

And regardless of what you think, Peter and the other Apostles DID have the power to bind and loose heaven - and they used that power to appoint (or confirm) at least two new Apostles - Matthias and Paul - to take over the roles of Judas and James (martyred by Herod before Paul began his ministry). Who had the same full power and authority as the original remaining 10.

THEY saw the ongoing need for successors, even if you don’t. And THEY had the power to appoint them, lay hands on them and make them Apostles. That includes the authority to THEMSELVES appoint and lay hands on successors just had been done to them. And so they did, generation upon generation up till our present day.

 

[abcd]

You’re the one missing the point and going off track now. Did I only mention the Keys? Surely I didn’t, because they’re not the only claim to authority Peter has.

Are there no more sheep and lambs to be fed? No more building of the Church to be done? No more need for its foundation Rock? No more battering of the gates of Hell to be done with that same Rock then? We need Peter today just as much as we did in 34 AD.

And regardless of what you think, Peter and the other Apostles DID have the power to bind and loose heaven - and they used that power to appoint (or confirm) at least two new Apostles - Matthias and Paul - to take over the roles of Judas and James (martyred by Herod before Paul began his ministry). Who had the same full power and authority as the original remaining 10.

THEY saw the ongoing need for successors, even if you don’t. And THEY had the power to appoint them, lay hands on them and make them Apostles. That includes the authority to THEMSELVES appoint and lay hands on successors just had been done to them. And so they did, generation upon generation up till our present day.

HMM, well I did not deny any of the things you say I did. All true Christians are the successors of Peter and all the other Apostles and all true Christians. Of course there are more sheep to be fed. Of course The church which are the people are to be built. And this is carried on by true Christians.

Who Heads the True Church?

The Jews knew from the old scriptures that the “Son of God” denoted Deity and that the Lord is called “a Rock”: "He is THE ROCK… the Rock that begat thee… our Rock. Deut.32:4,18,31. “Who is a rock save our GOD?” Psalms 18:31. Thus the apostles had no misunderstanding of Christ’s words after Peter’s confession, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” that not on a mere man, not on Peter (“Petros,” a stone), but on this Rock (“Petra,” a great rock, Christ) “I will build my church.” Matt. 16:16,18.

Evidently, Christ’s church is not built upon a mere man, but upon the foundation laid down by the apostles and prophets, “Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.” Eph. 2:20. To this Peter adds his testimony in 1 Peter 2:6-8, that Christ the chief cornerstone was the “stone which the builders (Jewish leaders) disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, a stone of stumbling and a ROCK of offence.” All believers, including Peter, “as living stones are built up a spiritual house,” v.5. As “one who hears” Simon Peter included himself among the “living stones” who have heard and believed the gospel, who in Christ “are builded together for the habitation of God through the Spirit.” Eph. 2:21,22. “Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” 1 Cor. 3:11.

Truly, it is the Lord Jesus Christ, the FOUNDER of His church (Whom “God hath highly exalted and given a name which is above every name” Phil. 2:9), Who heads His church, NOT a succession of Adamic sinful human beings, elected by men of like Adamic nature, to become “Popes.”

 

[dessert]

Matthew 16:19 tells us that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. This clearly has to be the same kingdom that Jesus later told Pilate “was not of this world”. So what kingdom did these keys open and where is it. First we must look at Peter’s ministry of presenting the first sermon, presenting the gospel for the first time and announcing that the way into the kingdom (heaven) was now open. Besides preaching the first sermon to the Jews and opening the way for them he also opened the door to the gentiles through his going to Cornelius. This privilege (not authority over the other apostles) was give to Peter based on his confession that Jesus was Lord and Son of God. The Church is not the kingdom, **
If the Church is not the kingdom then why did Peter and instruct Paul and the others to establish them? Why not just sit in a field and meditate?
as is based on what Jesus said :"not of this world”. It is a spiritual realm entered in by the instructions given to the apostles as keys.
Be careful what “realm” you enter into for me I will take the lead of the apostles and tradition they established by following Jesus at the last supper and establishing the sacraments
** And not to Peter only as in Matthew 16:19 but to all the disciples as shown in 18:18 as well.**

As I just stated your own words for tradition** Peter through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit announced the way to salvation.**
Jesus said He is the way …** The door was opened. The keys were used. Once a door is opened; **Welcome mat for all even the devil and wolfs ?**one no longer needs keys. **So are you saying we need no shepherd any more? Jesus was specifically speaking with Peter and the ones to follow. Did Peter give ABCD the keys oh my you are so worthy, you must be a saint allready **

There was and is no need to pass on the keys to anyone else unless you are going to change the opening procedure that Peter has already established by Spiritual inspiration. **
No testing ? hmmmm why are disputing with us since you allready have all the answers?
**These were not physical keys. These were not transferable keys (no where in scripture are the keys seen as transferable) **
If the keys are not transferrable how did Peter get them? **This was the information man needed to be saved and enter the kingdom “not of this world”. Just as Peter said how one could enter, throughout his ministry he also said what would keep people out. Thus the promise of what he opened and shut would remain, what he bound and loosed would hold true.

Are you a JW ? I was a protestant of many denominations and now know the way so I could argue all day on this I know all the angles.
You should think this through more and reason that you can’t have it both ways.

 

[dessert]

HMM, well I did not deny any of the things you say I did. All true Christians are the successors of Peter and all the other Apostles and all true Christians. Of course there are more sheep to be fed. Of course The church which are the people are to be built. And this is carried on by true Christians.

Who Heads the True Church?

The Jews knew from the old scriptures that the “Son of God” denoted Deity and that the Lord is called “a Rock”: "He is THE ROCK… the Rock that begat thee… our Rock. Deut.32:4,18,31. “Who is a rock save our GOD?” Psalms 18:31. Thus the apostles had no misunderstanding of Christ’s words after Peter’s confession, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” that not on a mere man, not on Peter (“Petros,” a stone), but on this Rock (“Petra,” a great rock, Christ) “I will build my church.” Matt. 16:16,18.

Evidently, Christ’s church is not built upon a mere man, but upon the foundation laid down by the apostles and prophets, “Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.” Eph. 2:20. To this Peter adds his testimony in 1 Peter 2:6-8, that Christ the chief cornerstone was the “stone which the builders (Jewish leaders) disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, a stone of stumbling and a ROCK of offence.” All believers, including Peter, “as living stones are built up a spiritual house,” v.5. As “one who hears” Simon Peter included himself among the “living stones” who have heard and believed the gospel, who in Christ “are builded together for the habitation of God through the Spirit.” Eph. 2:21,22. “Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” 1 Cor. 3:11.

Truly, it is the Lord Jesus Christ, the FOUNDER of His church (Whom “God hath highly exalted and given a name which is above every name” Phil. 2:9), Who heads His church, NOT a succession of Adamic sinful human beings, elected by men of like Adamic nature, to become “Popes.”

Who beget you or were you just laid as an egg under a tree.?

Jesus Christ established the physical church on earth, as He was physical you know, to continue His allready spiritual heaven that including the angels.
Peter started out as a sinful human being look what He did with him and I think He can help you too.
If you can kind of step down from your throne.

 

[abcd]

Are you a JW ? I was a protestant of many denominations and now know the way so I could argue all day on this I know all the angles.
You should think this through more and reason that you can’t have it both ways.

I did not say I need no shepherd. There five ministry gifts given and pastor is one of them

I did not say there would be no testing.

Your signature says you were a cradle catholic but yet you say you belonged to many other protestant churchs.

No, im not a JW since they are not considered a Christian church by all other Evangelical churchs. I am a Christian. The evidence I gave you can not be any plainer so I give up.

Those that know the true history of the Church will get it right.:banghead:

Bill

 

[abcd]

Who beget you or were you just laid as an egg under a tree.?

Jesus Christ established the physical church on earth, as He was physical you know, to continue His allready spiritual heaven that including the angels.
Peter started out as a sinful human being look what He did with him and I think He can help you too.
If you can kind of step down from your throne.

Jesus is on the throne.

Peter started out as a sinful man and remained one until he died.

I was born a sinner and still am a sinner saved by grace.

Of course the church is physical and spiritual and Im physical so that makes me part of the church because I have been saved by Grace alone and not of myself it is the gift of God through Jesus Christ.

 

[dessert]

I did not say I need no shepherd. There five ministry gifts given and pastor is one of them

I did not say there would be no testing.

Your signature says you were a cradle catholic but yet you say you belonged to many other protestant churchs.

No, im not a JW since they are not considered a Christian church by all other Evangelical churchs. I am a Christian. The evidence I gave you can not be any plainer so I give up.

Those that know the true history of the Church will get it right.:banghead:

Bill

I left the Catholic Church because I was seeking a utopia that is not found here on earth, the Catholic Church is not the utopia it is the established Church .
I came back because I could not find Jesus anywhere out in the christian churches. LOL he was right where I left Him when I was seeking my own gratification, His real prescence was just waiting for me in the sacraments where He wanted me to come back and join Him in the fold of sheep.

 

[planter654]

But not Christ.The Church didn’t write the Bible. Men did - inspired by God the Holy Spirit.Here’s the core problem of both Rome and Constantinople. Neither of you are the “context” of the Bible. Christ is, who predated both of you and your historical, continual, struggle for power.Taking Christ out of the context of the Bible and replacing Him with Rome or Constantinople removes the life out of any Church. All you have left is either dead “orthodoxy,” or dead “sacramentalism.”

Right!

 

[dessert]

Jesus is on the throne.**
Jesus Christ is in the trinity, at the altar, in the communion, in our faith, part of the nativity, part of the cross and living through us by our worship, yes we don’t leave Him out of anything. He is part of every sacrament and the Our Father as spoken by Him.
We are to follow His example as handed down through the apostles, and our Catholic church tradition and rules.**

Peter started out as a sinful man and remained one until he died.


I was born a sinner and still am a sinner saved by grace.
Now you are more holy than Peter, you just proved my point.
.

Of course the church is physical and spiritual and Im physical so that makes me part of the church because I have been saved by Grace ?alone? and not of myself it is the gift of God through Jesus Christ**
Don’t get me wrong you may be saved, if that is all you want to be is just saved, Jesus has so much more for you and use the key to unlock the other doors**
What happened to the FAITH part?

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Jesus is on the throne.

Peter started out as a sinful man and remained one until he died.

I was born a sinner and still am a sinner saved by grace.

Of course the church is physical and spiritual and Im physical so that makes me part of the church because I have been saved by Grace alone and not of myself it is the gift of God through Jesus Christ.

I agree with you in what you said above. By why bother to believe the Church is physical?

Whether it is or not, as long as you believe you are saved by Jesus doing what He did, does ANYTHING physical make any difference to you whatsoever?

Why bother with a physical church at all? Why bother with anything that is not you being you and your belief which saves you?

How is your “church” physical, and how does that effect your being saved?

 

[abcd]

Of course the church is physical and spiritual and Im physical so that makes me part of the church because I have been saved by Grace ?alone? and not of myself it is the gift of God through Jesus Christ**
Don’t get me wrong you may be saved, if that is all you want to be is just saved, Jesus has so much more for you and use the key to unlock the other doors**
What happened to the FAITH part?

HUH? you said i think im more Holy then Peter because I said I was a sinner saved by Grace? Just the same as Peter,Peter was a sinner saved by grace also.

You asked “what happened to the faith part”?

I was not saved by faith, the scripture says I was saved by grace THROUGH faith/—

 

[planter654]

From a strictly scriptural point of view Ephesisans 2:20 mentions ‘the prophets’ as part of that foundation right alongside the Apostles. Are you really suggesting that these ‘prophets’, whether OT or otherwise, are exactly as significant as the Apostles to whom alone Christ gave the power to bind and loose heaven? Of course not.

So also, among the Apostles, the other 11 are not as significant as Peter to whom alone Christ gave the Keys of the Kingdom, and the task of feeding the lambs and sheep and whom ***alone ***He actually NAMES ‘Rock’! Why not call them ALL ‘Cephases’ if they are equally as important as each other?

As for infallibility - it’s not exactly rocket science to figure out that His Church can’t at one and the same time be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit and capable of teaching error. So clearly the Apostles were infallible.

And clearly - as Jesus gave the Apostles free reign to bind and loose heaven, so the idea of passing on their powers in their fullness to their successors must be valid - endorsed by heaven itself, since Acts shows them choosing a replacement for Judas.

Why do this if it was unnecessary for the Apostles to have successors to carry on their work? Was Matthias treated as any the less an Apostle (or Paul for that matter) even though they weren’t of the original 12? Not a bit.

Was not St. Peter crucified up side down in Rome… and before his death he ask God to forgive them for they know not what they do. It is Jesus Christ church he laid the foundation for the whole world, he is the corner stone, God has made Jesus our High Priest forever. Did St. Peter hand them over or were St. Peter’s keys given to him by Jesus stolen? I am really confused about this the Keys.

Will not the Catholic Church not also be judged how they built? upon Jesus foundation? Jesus is the Rock. Like how have I lived my life, have I been fruitful maybe I am a small stone on the foundation or have I lived my life only building with straw on the foundation, understand what I am trying to say?

Thanks

 

[abcd]

HUH? you said i think im more Holy then Peter because I said I was a sinner saved by Grace? Just the same as Peter,Peter was a sinner saved by grace also.

You asked “what happened to the faith part”?

I was not saved by faith, the scripture says I was saved by grace THROUGH faith/—

I have used all the other keys.

 

[planter654]

Matthew 16:19 tells us that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. This clearly has to be the same kingdom that Jesus later told Pilate “was not of this world”. So what kingdom did these keys open and where is it. First we must look at Peter’s ministry of presenting the first sermon, presenting the gospel for the first time and announcing that the way into the kingdom (heaven) was now open. Besides preaching the first sermon to the Jews and opening the way for them he also opened the door to the gentiles through his going to Cornelius. This privilege (not authority over the other apostles) was give to Peter based on his confession that Jesus was Lord and Son of God. The Church is not the kingdom, as is based on what Jesus said :"not of this world”. It is a spiritual realm entered in by the instructions given to the apostles as keys. And not to Peter only as in Matthew 16:19 but to all the disciples as shown in 18:18 as well. Peter through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit announced the way to salvation. The door was opened. The keys were used. Once a door is opened; one no longer needs keys.

There was and is no need to pass on the keys to anyone else unless you are going to change the opening procedure that Peter has already established by Spiritual inspiration. These were not physical keys. These were not transferable keys (no where in scripture are the keys seen as transferable) This was the information man needed to be saved and enter the kingdom “not of this world”. Just as Peter said how one could enter, throughout his ministry he also said what would keep people out. Thus the promise of what he opened and shut would remain, what he bound and loosed would hold true.

I agree with your explanation. Jesus ask St Peter how much do you love me? Feed my sheep. Feed my lambs. Feed my sheep. I think St. Peter is still feeding us don’t you think?

Remember when they said…I plant…another waters but God causes the growth.

So do not argue or say I belong to Paul or I belong to Peter that answers the question, don’t you think? Does Jesus mention Keys? Only Matthew talks about the keys?

Thanks

 

[planter654]

Matthew 16:19 tells us that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. This clearly has to be the same kingdom that Jesus later told Pilate “was not of this world”. So what kingdom did these keys open and where is it. First we must look at Peter’s ministry of presenting the first sermon, presenting the gospel for the first time and announcing that the way into the kingdom (heaven) was now open. Besides preaching the first sermon to the Jews and opening the way for them he also opened the door to the gentiles through his going to Cornelius. This privilege (not authority over the other apostles) was give to Peter based on his confession that Jesus was Lord and Son of God. The Church is not the kingdom, as is based on what Jesus said :"not of this world”. It is a spiritual realm entered in by the instructions given to the apostles as keys. And not to Peter only as in Matthew 16:19 but to all the disciples as shown in 18:18 as well. Peter through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit announced the way to salvation. The door was opened. The keys were used. Once a door is opened; one no longer needs keys.

There was and is no need to pass on the keys to anyone else unless you are going to change the opening procedure that Peter has already established by Spiritual inspiration. These were not physical keys. These were not transferable keys (no where in scripture are the keys seen as transferable) This was the information man needed to be saved and enter the kingdom “not of this world”. Just as Peter said how one could enter, throughout his ministry he also said what would keep people out. Thus the promise of what he opened and shut would remain, what he bound and loosed would hold true.

I agree thanks

 

[abcd]

Was not St. Peter crucified up side down in Rome… and before his death he ask God to forgive them for they know not what they do. It is Jesus Christ church he laid the foundation for the whole world, he is the corner stone, God has made Jesus our High Priest forever. Did St. Peter hand them over or were St. Peter’s keys given to him by Jesus stolen? I am really confused about this the Keys.

Will not the Catholic Church not also be judged how they built? upon Jesus foundation? Jesus is the Rock. Like how have I lived my life, have I been fruitful maybe I am a small stone on the foundation or have I lived my life only building with straw on the foundation, understand what I am trying to say?

Planter,

These keys are misunderstood by most here. The keys is the Gospel message that was given to Peter and all the others to be passed on.

Thanks

 

[abcd]

I agree with you in what you said above. By why bother to believe the Church is physical?

Whether it is or not, as long as you believe you are saved by Jesus doing what He did, does ANYTHING physical make any difference to you whatsoever?

Why bother with a physical church at all? Why bother with anything that is not you being you and your belief which saves you?

How is your “church” physical, and how does that effect your being saved?

Calmdown:

Well, the only reason I said anything about physical is because the Catholic makes so much out of an institution they call the church.

The Church is made up of all true believers that have put their trust in Christ alone and him only for salvation not an institution or denomination.