If Rome is wrong, where do you go?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Isa_Almisry
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith not of yourselves it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.
You add the word alone. You subtract “through faith”. In doing such you seperate yourself off from the mystery of redemption. The greek word here is “pistos” it is properly translated faithful. Note this is in agreement with Paul’s call in Romans 1 to “obedience in faith” or faithful obedience.
Works is “ergo nomu” and refers to leagalistic observance of the Torah devoid of Christ.
Christ followed the law, even the works Christ boasted of the Father as they are one. Don’t you think Jesus did works and are we not suppose to do less? We shouldn’t add or subtract anything.
How is the Torah devoid of Christ?
 
Please substantiate this claim that Rome admits it’s “wrong” on many issues.
I realize this post was not for me .You have to realize that Rome will never be able to admit when it is wrong because they then would have to admit that they are not who they say they are.

Was it wrong when the Roman Catholic church said all non catholics were going to hell? And since vatican II now the popes have alowed all baptised prots to go to heaven. Were they wrong then or are they wrong now? Dem dare popes sure have a lot of power to do that and they can even shorten your time in purgatory if you do indulgences and just announced by the pope.:highprayer:
 
Your own history shows a lot of errors that the Catholic church has made. The keys of the kingdom was the confession that Peter made that He is the Christ. Read the whole context of that chapter not just part of it. You can not base a doctrine on one or two verses.
:rolleyes:
Nor have I based it on one or two verses. You certainly cannot say definitively that the rock was the confession of Peter, and if you base your ecclesiology based on that, well then Physician heal thyself. I based my decision on years of prayer and study, and not on prooftexting…

Mere denial is not a disproof so there is really nothing in your post to prove what you say
 
Calmdown:

Well, the only reason I said anything about physical is because the Catholic makes so much out of an institution they call the church.

The Church is made up of all true believers that have put their trust in Christ alone and him only for salvation not an institution or denomination.
So, is it possible to put all of one’s trust in Christ Jesus alone for one’s salvation and still trust that some people may know more about the “peripheral stuff” that makes for our being more “Christ-like” than we do?
 
I realize this post was not for me .You have to realize that Rome will never be able to admit when it is wrong because they then would have to admit that they are not who they say they are.

Was it wrong when the Roman Catholic church said all non catholics were going to hell? And since vatican II now the popes have alowed all baptised prots to go to heaven. Were they wrong then or are they wrong now? Dem dare popes sure have a lot of power to do that and they can even shorten your time in purgatory if you do indulgences and just announced by the pope.:highprayer:
Just demonstrates your lack of understanding about what we really believe.

Here’s a novel idea. Instead of taking the word of your own Church, why not actually find out what we believe. There is certainly no contradiction, though some may believe there is.
 

Was it wrong when the Roman Catholic church said all non catholics were going to hell? And since vatican II now the popes have alowed all baptised prots to go to heaven. Were they wrong then or are they wrong now? Dem dare popes sure have a lot of power to do that and they can even shorten your time in purgatory if you do indulgences and just announced by the pope.:highprayer:
No one outside the Church that Christ established, which is the Catholic Church, nor anyone IN the Church, will get to heaven unless they are graced by God Himself for being true to His commands as best they can know Him given their circumstances.

This has always been the claim of the Church. That you interpret the proclamations to mean what you would like them to mean is a problem between you and God.

You obviously know nothing of what indulgences are about, as they are only well-wishes to help those who are destined for heaven and are being “instructed” in purgatory.

Any indulgence for oneself is an act we take to be more thoroughly forgiven by Jesus. It’s simply asking for forgiveness, as you say you do, in a more vehement way to show we do really care about our salvation.

But, since you are “completely saved and cleansed for heaven” regardless of what you do now or in the future, that is totally silly to you. So be it. 🙂

Keep talking. You illustrate the “angry protestant” very well for those here not familiar with the type. Thanks again!
 
Our NO is starting to adopt some Latin even a little because we have to obey the bishop.

Pope Benedict xvi is going to visit the USA next year so what if he says to the bishops all must adopt a little latin, what are you Eastern Catholics going to do? They are making us they can make you too.

We have gotten the word and I think it will happen to all, Coptic all the ones that were listed, don’t shut your ears and eyes to this because I believe it is happening now.
That is never going to happen. Rome is not going to demand Eastern Catholics use Latin.
 
The thread has moved on “Isa” but I find no address to your points below.
I’ve posted a couple: Pope Victor’s highhandness marks a definite start (and I have posted that he had intimate links to the emperor, which I think contributed to his imperial manner). Pope Nicholas’ adventure in Bulgaria, exposing what was going on in Rome (and the subsequent suppression of the Eastern missionaries in Moravia, who returned East to Bulgaria with warnings). (IMHO, in some sense the “Photian schism” was anti-climatic). The German conquest of the Romans in the West, and the events of Henry’s coranation (first use of the filioque in Roman liturgy) and 1054, and then the seal of 1204.

Now and every fork of the road, you found your way back. But 1204 pretty much burned the bridge down. Do those flames illuminate when the departure began?
Most assuredly you jest! Pope Victor’s ‘highandedness marks’ two things;
That the Papacy lineage exists at that point as demonstrated by his exercise of that authority;
Dissention from that lineage, begins from opposition to that authority.

Now considering that Victor is Pope should tell you definitively, who is the dissenter between us. It’s amusing that you cite Victor as some case to undermine the Papacy when he is the one who ‘corrected’ the Easter Celebration to SUNDAY in spite of all the argumentative bishopric views of the time. When do you celebrate Easter? Every 14th of April or ‘Easter” SUNDAYS?

Pope Nicholas also set about correcting Bishops all over the place who either taught erroneous doctrine, or outright opposed Rome. Also, he reiterated the sanctity of marriage through threat of siege and death! That you paint some kind of ‘goings on in Rome’ like it was some expose, ignores the fact that it mirrored what was going on in your neck of the woods and that these ‘goings on’ continued in the East to today, whereas, Rome does not er….enjoy such ‘freedom.’

:cool:
 
At that council, the Apostle whom you claim as your first pope did not preside: St. James the Brother of God did. The tome of the council records his judgement.
I claim him to be OUR first Pope, pre-schism. Re-read the Scriptures! James was Bishop of Jerusalem where the council was held. Yet Peter DECIDED the issue. (circumcision.) Read it carefully. AFTER Peter spoke and voiced his decision, James spoke, as presiding Bishop, and ACCEPTED the decision of Simon Peter. Now, you can build your cases in all directions from there, including, James made the final decision, but Scriptures is clear as to WHO decided the issue that was accepted by the Christian church. In fact, when James spoke, he cites Peter’s decision. Considering that he is the presiding Bishop, and brother of Our Lord, how clearer do you want your examples of Peter’s Papacy?
Sylvester did nothing at Nicea, Damasus was absent from Constantinople I, Pope Cyril of Alexandria led Ephesus (yes, I know the claim is that he only acted as Rome’s legate, but he had acted with his uncle Pope Theophilos in defiance of Rome in deposing another Archbishop of Constantinople, so he was quite capable on his own. And the Council didn’t seem to put him on a lower footing than Rome, proclaiming both “a new Paul” NOTE: not a new “Peter.” Leo was big at Chalcedon (after the fathers examined his tome and compared it to previous Councils), but the council seated Dioscorus over Leo’s express orders, and ignored his protest over canon 28. When Pope Vigilius refused to have anything to do with the Fifth Council, it went on without him. The Sixth anathematized Pope Honorius. The Pope had very little to do with the Seventh, while the semi-iconoclast council of Frankfurt was held in his patriarchate. Constantinople IV refused to be the rubber stamp that Nicholas wanted (he instructed it to merely ratify his decision), and Pope John approved the final form, which restored St. Photius.
I have read some of the material regarding the period and I don’t think a snippet on this forum is going to be sufficient to address just the bare facts of what actually occurred and then differentiate it from your inserted opinion and musings; so I won’t.

Suffice to say, there is plenty of material online for all to read and digest and check against other sources to sift through the various happenings throughout our history to see the errors of your view. It will be good study and learning also. The beauty of it is that NONE of it is hidden. It’s all there to be mulled over.
The Council of Jerusalem met in the name of the “Apostles (bishops), elders (priests) and brethren (Faithful).” No mention of Cephas, or a pope. Such was the governance of the Church. Such it is now. As our Lord said, “the gentiles have those who rule over them,” but he did not found a monarchy. James and John asked who would be first. Someone is asking the same question now.
There is no mention of Pope or Collection of Bishops in the Scriptures, especially at the council in Jerusalem! Simply says, the elders of the Church, including the Apostles. For all we know from what is written, James could have been the only Bishop present. Yet they gathered over such a heated issue such as circumcision, since they were all Jews following the line of Moses!

Even as broadly as you want to make the governance of the Church, the Apostles do not demonstrate your view. Firstly, they sought council among themselves and elders of The Church and SOMEONE always makes the final decision to be collectively adopted in their teachings. Scriptures denotes Peter’s role repeatedly ON MAJOR issues among them. Circumcision being one, the replacement of Judas, the other, since there is no reason why the remaining 11 – Apostles could not have continued the ministry of Our Lord.

Finally, you seem to point out and highlight various arising issues during the Church’s history, and the steps taken by various Popes to address them as some kind of case against the Papacy and / or the Infallibility of The Church. You cannot be serious! Firstly, the fact that there are Popes throughout The Church’s history prior, during and since the schism, is historically clear. Secondly, The Holy Spirit guides The Church as promised by Christ, but it is full of sinners and in human hands, susceptible to sin like you and I.

Moreover, ‘The enemy’ spends most of his time and energy infiltrating Christ’s Church. Until Christ returns to be The Last Pope, The Church is GUIDED, not led, by God. That honour is to come, as Revelations tells us.

:cool:
 
Firstly, the fact that there are Popes throughout The Church’s history prior, during and since the schism, is historically clear.
Something else is historically clear. The Popes of the pre-schism era were not described as infallible supreme pontiffs.
 
Something else is historically clear. The Popes of the pre-schism era were not described as infallible supreme pontiffs.
No Pope is described as ‘infallible supreme pontiffs’

No Pope has been such… but One Will Be.

He will be the last Pope.

:cool:
 
Today, as we speak, the Pope of Rome is called the supreme pontiff. The doctrine of papal infallibility was proclaimed in 1870.
You’re mismashing.

Supreme Pontiff - Yes. Not infallible.

Papal Infallibility - Yes. Not Pope is infallible.

If you are interested in learning the difference, keep researching.

:cool:
 
This is almost too laughable to even bother responding to, but The Catholic Church is the only Church that doesput things in context. Not just the chapter, but the entire Bible. Since you just joined this site 2 days ago, I’ll give you a bit of advice. Your arguments are not new, they have been refuted on a daily basis for a long time. You’ll need to contribute something a little better to get any notice.
Hmm’’ Well, -]/-]since you skirt around the question with a no answer that is typical of catholics to ignore the question by this method it becomes a usless debate. :banghead: I have given direct quotes from popes that deny the Gospel and I get the same kind of response or something like–you just don’t understand him. Are you going to lourds?:hmmm:
 
You are nothing unless you build on the foundations Paul refers to in Ephesians 2 - scripture says it, not I, that the Apostles are foundations along with Christ the keystone, and that we must build on all of 'em.

If you have a problem with Ephesians blame Paul, he wrote it, not I.

And HOW did St Paul put on the mind of Christ? He explicitly sought the blessing of St Peter and the other Apostles before he even began His ministry to the Gentiles - in other words He sought to be of one mind with THEM. "Who hears you hears me’.

You can’t conquer yourself without wholeheartedly submitting to the authority Christ set over us. HIS chosen, the Apostles, and THEIR chosen, their succesors.

Paul disagreed with Peter, sure - because Peter wasn’t, in his actions, living up to the teaching he professed as regards the Gentiles - but Paul never challenged that teaching, not a jot of it! And was always submissive to it.
How did St. Paul put on the mind of Christ? You said he St. Paul “explicitly sought” the blessing of St. Peter… wrong

ST. Paul was chosen by “Jesus Christ” who was them Saul and put aside to go and preach to the Gentlies…St.Paul was set apart to become the apostle of the Gentles chosen by Jesus Christ. Saul Saul why do you prescute me? Jesus also changed his name to Paul. St. Peter did not come to know this till later!

Acts of the Apostles Chapter 15

But some came down from Judea and began to teach the brethren saying, ( like you are trying to do) " Unless you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, “you cannot be saved”!

And when “no little objection” ( a big up roar took place) was made against them by Paul and Barnabas, they decided that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to the apostles and presbyters at Jersusalem about this question. >>>On the Arriving at Jersusalem they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the presbyters and they ( Paul, Barnabas) proclaimed “ALL THAT GOD HAD DONE WITH THEM” Meaning St. Peter and the other apostles did not know that they Paul and Barnabas were chosen by GOD for work and set apart to also be apostles to the Gentles.

So the apostles and the presbyters had a meeting to look into this matter,. Whether Paul was a fake or not I would think?

Peter said to them his answer I would guess the Holy Spirit confirmed it to St. Peter in praying and in asking…then St. Peter said:
Code:
 Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among us, that through my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And GOD, WHO KNOWS the heart, bore witness by giving them the HOLY SPIRIT, JUST AS HE DID TO US: AND HE MADE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN US AND THEM, but cleansed their hearts by faith. WHY then do you now try TO TEST GOD by putting on the NECK OF THE DISCIPLES A "YOKE' which neither OUR FATHER NOR WE have been able to bear?? BUT WE BELIEVE THAT WE ARE SAVED THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS, "JUST AS THEY ARE". Then the "WHOLE"quieted down and LISTENED while Barnabas and Paul told of the "GREAT SIGNS" and "WONDERS" that "GOD HAD" done among the Gentiles through them.
The Holy Spirit blows upon whom “IT WILLS”

I believe there is ony “ONE” in the end “ONE” body with many members serving “one another” in “ONE BODY”, Jesus Christ “AS HIGH PRIEST FOR EVER”…“ONE” GOD, “ONE” BODY “ONE” CHURCH( all who believe) “ONE” Kingdom, “ONE” heaven “ONE” family…“ONE” King “ONE” thought…God, “ONE” will “ONE” desire.

"he Holy Spirit blows upon whom “IT WILLS”. No one causes division for it is God’s House. No one is greater or less for all have received so no one can boast but boast only of what you have received.

We are all called to be disciples and spread, live, serve one another for the building up of God’s Kingdom our Father…for we are all God’s children pray for all our brothers and sister salvation.

A little child of God…
God Bless
 
You’re mismashing.
What is mismashing?
Supreme Pontiff - Yes.
But you just stated that the Pope is not the supreme pontiff. :confused: Are you playing word games?
Papal Infallibility - Yes. Not Pope is infallible.
I did not say that he claims to be sinless or inerrant. But the Pope does claim to have the charism of infallibility when speaking ex-cathedra. This doctrine was unheard of until it was proclaimed at Vatican I in 1870. It is difficult to not see this dogma as a recent innovation.

That is my understanding. I know that it is not yours.
I am appreciative to the Roman Catholic Church as being a part of the journey that has led me and my family to Holy Orthodoxy.

Peace and blessings
 
Hmm’’ Well, since you skirt around the question with a no answer that is **typical of catholics to ignore the question **by this method it becomes a usless debate. :banghead: I have given direct quotes from popes that deny the Gospel and I get the same kind of response or something like–you just don’t understand him. Are you going to lourds?:hmmm:
Your charity is declining. 😦
 
You’re mismashing.

Supreme Pontiff - Yes. Not infallible.

Papal Infallibility - Yes. Not Pope is infallible.

If you are interested in learning the difference, keep researching.

:cool:
Papal infallibility
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is the dogma that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. For all such infallible teachings, the Holy Spirit also works through the body of the Church to ensure that the teaching will be received by all Catholics.

This doctrine was defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1870. According to Catholic theology, there are several concepts important to the understanding of infallible, divine revelation: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Magisterium. The infallible teachings of the pope are part of the Sacred Magisterium, which also consists of ecumenical councils and the “ordinary and universal magisterium”. In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is one of the channels of the infallibility of the Church. The infallible teachings of the pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. Papal infallibility does not signify that the pope is impeccable, i.e., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin.

According to The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Understanding Catholicism: “In reality, the pope seldom uses his power of infallibility…rather than being some mystical power of the pope, infallibility means the church allows the office of the pope to be the ruling agent in deciding what will be accepted as formal beliefs in the church.”[2] Since the 1870 solemn declaration of Papal Infallibility by Vatican I, this power has been used only once: in 1950 when Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as being an article of faith for Roman Catholics.

Some of these so called Sacred traditions can also be fairy tales.:highprayer:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top