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Sword_Brethren
Guest
It would be good for you abcd if you went to Lourdes because then you could learn about humility.Are you going to lourds?
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
Not true, the Holy Catholic Church never taught those things. The Catholic Church nevers errors in “Faith and Morals.”
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dessert
Guest
Isa made another thread out of this but I didn’t want it to lead to a debate. I am also glad that our priest is following the bishop in these matters. I thought this change was going to affect only the TLM but what we see is the Holy Father is fair and integrating the Latin into our music, maybe he feels that this is where we can get more of reverence back in. It is a good start. I see many scadalling in the future because you mention or speak any Latin and protestants will flee. I attended a funeral today and it is a long story but it was pretty and it was in english, I’m going to attend everyone I can to be a support to our priest, he has 3 this week and 1 next, On;y the deceased was the Catholic so at least father had a handful of us to sing and respond to mass, it was very nice and the deceased had only been a Catholic a few years it felt vey much like she went to the Lord it was a very warm mass and they had alll loved this woman very much. I am rambling sorry:thumbsup:
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marlo
Guest
let me see,hmmn…
Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch,more muslims than christians, this seems to show if rome is wrong be muslim…
Jerusalem? more muslims or jews than christians also in fact the keeper of the church of resurrection is muslim since the EO and OO dont show love and trust to each other
Belgrade, Sofia, Prague, Warsaw, Washington, Athens, Bucharest, Tblisi, Nicosia, Tirana, St. Catherine’s.
to the rest, i dont have an idea. seems that its not the universal church the Fathers have always thought.
Well, Rome it is:thumbsup:
Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch,more muslims than christians, this seems to show if rome is wrong be muslim…
Jerusalem? more muslims or jews than christians also in fact the keeper of the church of resurrection is muslim since the EO and OO dont show love and trust to each other
Belgrade, Sofia, Prague, Warsaw, Washington, Athens, Bucharest, Tblisi, Nicosia, Tirana, St. Catherine’s.
to the rest, i dont have an idea. seems that its not the universal church the Fathers have always thought.
Well, Rome it is:thumbsup:
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mangy_dog
Guest
No, no you are not rambling. Your words are a very relevant testimony to what Pope Benedict XVI is trying to do. My wife and I head the music ministry at our mass. Some Sundays the congregation is really with it and they answer every prayer from the priest but there are other Sundays when it seems they’re still asleep, consequently the only ones answering the priest’s prayers are my wife and I.
The funeral you attended is a prime example of not only knowing the answer to prayers said by the priest but also the importance of answering these prayers. If the handful of catholics that were there had not done so - the priest would’ve answered his own prayers. Whether in English, Spanish, Latin or any other language…it is important to know and answer the prayers of the priest. I thank God for catholics like you - aware, concious and reverent.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum
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Deconi
Guest
Mishmashing is taking two or more facts and blending them to arrive at a conclusion which most times is incorrect. Such is the case, seemingly, with yours.
Supreme means ‘first among equals.’ Not superior due to a physical difference.But you just stated that the Pope is not the supreme pontiff.
A ‘Supreme Court Judge’ is no different to an Appeal Court Judge, nor is the SCJ privvy to a different set of LAWS from which to reach a decision. However, the supremacy means the decision is FINAL!
The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and ‘no difference’ to the Bishop of Australia in appearance or accessibility of Tradition, Scriptures and Magisterium. The distinction of difference is AUTHORITY and Supremacy seats in Rome.
Not ‘recent innovation’ but the exercise of the authority vested in THE KEYS given to Peter, right from the beginning. As “…but my Father in Heaven Who revealed this to you” denote, so it is that we must understand The Holy Spirit does the same continuously, from time to time.
I think JP2 on the decision of not ordinating women priests is close as an exercise of infallibility in our time. I say ‘close’ because he did not decide it, just reaffirmed a position already decided. JP2 did teach us, again, where to seek confirmation of “the recent innovations” you may see; Scriptures and Tradition, since he represents the Magisterium.
Any ‘recent innovations’ you come across, JP2 shows where to do your research.
I sense your sincerety. In time, should you continue questioning and searching, in faith, you will see why Rome is the Seat of Catholicism.
God Bless
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Deconi
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“ABCD,” you can call Sacred Tradition fairy tales if you like. I would wager that your “belief system” DOES NOT HAVE ANY and ‘bridge’ the yawning gap from your feet all the way back to the beginning of The Church with statements like “I trust Jesus and His Book!”…
According to The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Understanding Catholicism: “In reality, the pope seldom uses his power of infallibility…rather than being some mystical power of the pope, infallibility means the church allows the office of the pope to be the ruling agent in deciding what will be accepted as formal beliefs in the church.”[2] Since the 1870 solemn declaration of Papal Infallibility by Vatican I, this power has been used only once: in 1950 when Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as being an article of faith for Roman Catholics.
Some of these so called Sacred traditions can also be fairy tales.
We all trust Our Lord and His Book. But as you know, ‘outside’ enquirers want to know how, when and why. Who is Jesus Christ? Where and When ‘was’ He in history? What makes Him different to Joseph Smith or Muhammed? They have a book each too!
Without Sacred Tradition, your ‘pious’ remarks are as ‘empty and unsupportable’ with evidence as Buddha and the ‘Enlightment.’
“abcd” denotes how much you know of Catholicism. It is the whole, entire alphabet of Christianity! You should learn the rest.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Interesting how some people are fixated on quantity, not quality.let me see,hmmn…
Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch,more muslims than christians, this seems to show if rome is wrong be muslim…
Jerusalem? more muslims or jews than christians also in fact the keeper of the church of resurrection is muslim since the EO and OO dont show love and trust to each other
Belgrade, Sofia, Prague, Warsaw, Washington, Athens, Bucharest, Tblisi, Nicosia, Tirana, St. Catherine’s.
to the rest, i dont have an idea. seems that its not the universal church the Fathers have always thought.
Well, Rome it is:thumbsup:
And I wouldn’t be so smug on muslim majorities. You seen the Italian birthrates? Welcome to Eurabia.
Using your yardstick, the Church in the time of the Apostles would not be the universal Church the Fathers have always thought.
I thought we were the ones that confuse Church and State?
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marlo
Guest
quality of what? i dont see any quality from being EO to OO. but i see quality from being EO to Catholic, using my yard stick, the church in time of the apostles was centered in the leadership of Peter, the Rock of the Church.
the same exist in the catholic church and you were missing that. you’re right you are the one confused between the church and state.
the same exist in the catholic church and you were missing that. you’re right you are the one confused between the church and state.
Interesting how some people are fixated on quantity, not quality.
And I wouldn’t be so smug on muslim majorities. You seen the Italian birthrates? Welcome to Eurabia.
Using your yardstick, the Church in the time of the Apostles would not be the universal Church the Fathers have always thought.
I thought we were the ones that confuse Church and State?
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
You said nothing about Rock, Peter or centered in you original post.
Just about majorities.
Bases on what said there paganism would be the choice, as even in Rome when St. Peter was there, the Christians were a tiny minority, and the supreme pontiff was Nero.
Since you characterization dismissed the Christians in the cities, in patricular Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria, perhaps you might just consider you own correligionists (the uniates) who remain Christian despite the pressures, like the time of the Apostles. Or are they not submissive to Rome enough for your taste?
Btw, on your commment on the arrangment on the Holy Sepulcher, you left the Latins out: you’re also fighters in that arena. And the mess only dates from the time your Crusaders upset the status of the patriarch of Jerusalem running his Churches.
Yes, I know you believe we should have followed the emperor and submitted the Church to the Latins at Lateran, Lyons and Florence.you’re right you are the one confused between the church and state.
Your argument only makes sense if nominalism, and control of government, is your goal.
And on numbers, I dare say, there is the distinct possibility on any given Sunday that more attend Divine Liturgy in Alexandria, than attend mass in Rome.
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surgei
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I think one of the things every one has missed is that the great schools of the ancient church were no way shape or form Roman. The Romans were still trying to convert pagans long after the councils. The sublime nature of the humility of the fathers of the east combined with their supreme form of liturgy, and correct doctrines to convert those in their territories.
How is it to this day the oldest surviving Christian Empire is not Rome or any in her territories but Ethiopia?
How is it the oldest seminary in the world is in Alexandria? How is it that Rome uses their scriptures to correct her own?
How is it that the Orthodox did not reject the teachings handed on to them in word and deed and did not need have need to this day for a pope to correcct their error as they have none?
How is it the early fathers would be so clear on the need of the local ordinary and yet neglect to tell us that the only derive their authority from submission to thos who sit in the seat of Peter?
How is it the fathers are so clear on the uniting power of the eucharist and yet so silent on the powers of the pope?
How is it their teachings on the work of God in the Eucharist is so clear and none has changed it be they east or west, and yet the murky teachings on the pope and other doctrines must be cleared up by the current magisterium?
How is it none of the fathers interpret the suposed petrine texts in the way the Catholics do today?
I still have not gotten answers to these questions. Are they just silly?
The burden of proof for the need of a “Supreme Pontiff” lays on the shoulders of those who say we, the Right Worshiping-Orthodox need him.
How is it to this day the oldest surviving Christian Empire is not Rome or any in her territories but Ethiopia?
How is it the oldest seminary in the world is in Alexandria? How is it that Rome uses their scriptures to correct her own?
How is it that the Orthodox did not reject the teachings handed on to them in word and deed and did not need have need to this day for a pope to correcct their error as they have none?
How is it the early fathers would be so clear on the need of the local ordinary and yet neglect to tell us that the only derive their authority from submission to thos who sit in the seat of Peter?
How is it the fathers are so clear on the uniting power of the eucharist and yet so silent on the powers of the pope?
How is it their teachings on the work of God in the Eucharist is so clear and none has changed it be they east or west, and yet the murky teachings on the pope and other doctrines must be cleared up by the current magisterium?
How is it none of the fathers interpret the suposed petrine texts in the way the Catholics do today?
I still have not gotten answers to these questions. Are they just silly?
The burden of proof for the need of a “Supreme Pontiff” lays on the shoulders of those who say we, the Right Worshiping-Orthodox need him.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
If Rome is wrong, perhaps one should go to Jesus and ask him to reform Rome and what might be done to help.
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.”
–Jesus (Matthew 11:28)
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
–Jesus (John 6:37)
"…God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”
(Hebrews 13:5)
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.”
–Jesus (Matthew 11:28)
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
–Jesus (John 6:37)
"…God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”
(Hebrews 13:5)
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planter654
Guest
I was looking for these same answers I went on google “Hebrews of Africa” Jesus was a hebrew right? Click on the first one at top of page once there interesting. Another one on google is " Israelite Heritage" very interesting makes you understand for me any God’s I wills and the curses. Their history in Abrahams time where they came from etc. How they lived.
God Bless
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planter654
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Do we need not to know the history of Moses, Abraham where they came from how they lived, their traditions, like ourselves today, we do have history books that explains to future generations, how we lived, our believes, why we did what we did, etc.
I found on google “Hebrews of Africa” a huge site of history. They… Moses Abraham etc came from Africa, Ethopia is mention in the OT 2,600 times. Also on google is “Israelite Heritage” after reading and still reading I feel I can understand God’s I WILLS and God’s curses… in a simple way…Interesting.
God Bless
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jam070406
Guest
So those receving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin due to contraception or divorce (adultry) is “Right worship” to you?
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Sword_Brethren
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An Orthodox friend of mine was telling me that because man in weak his Church okays divorce but only two divorces. I don’t know if that is true or not but that is what he told me. I was thinking why not 3 or 4 four divorces, then? Also, sense man is weak why not allow him to have sex outside of marriage, two times. That does not sound like the true religion.
Also, are not Orthodox Churchs more like regional and national Churchs and not universal?
Also, are not Orthodox Churchs more like regional and national Churchs and not universal?
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surgei
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Most bishops will allow a person to get married more than once but will often only do so after couciling. I know of several priests who will not comunicate them though. The practice you refer to is oikonamia (ok it’s a greek word and I don’t do well at transliteration). It is not unlike the process you do in the west of anulment. Their are some bishops, according to my RC roomates, that seem to hand out anulments like they were candy. as such, the whole time a person was living with the non spouse, according to your own theology, they were living in sin as they were having sex with a person not their spouse.
The Church Universal is made such by the Eucharist not by the sharing of any culture or form of liturgy. The suposed “nationalis” churches you see are not unlike national conferences that the bishops have in the west, they just have true powers to govern their Churches. They derive their power, as all bishops do, from ordination and not from comunion with a particular bishop as CCC claims that bishops do. One could argue based on your “nationalist” perspective that the assundry of uniate churches were not “Catholic” in that they too have their own self governing synods and in some casses patriarchs.
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jam070406
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Your arguments are tiresome. It’s typical that you would bypass what the Catholic church actually teaches and base Catholicism on What “some bishops” did or worse, your own personal opinion.
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surgei
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How did this answer any of the questions? What a duck and run.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
I think what you are mentioning are abuses. There are many abuses in the Catholic Church in America at this time. I believe in1968 there were around only 300 anulments granted in the states. Our Catholic clergy of America have been very unfaithful to The Holy Cathlic Faith, for the past 40 years.
"The Catholic Church does not accept divorce. Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble (Mt 5:31-21; 19:3-9; Mk 10:9; Lk 16:18; 1 Cor 7:10-11). However, the Church can declare the nullity of a marriage, i.e., declare that the marriage never existed (Code of Canon Law, #1095-1107; see also the Catechism of the Catholic Church, under “Divorce”). Last October Pope John Paul II, meeting with a delegation of US bishops, expressed his dissatisfaction with the number of annulments being granted to Catholics. US Catholics receive a disproportionately greater number of annulments each year.
The Holy Father said that annulments should be a last resort. “The indissolubility of marriage is a teaching that comes from Christ himself, and the first duty of pastors and pastoral workers is therefore to help couples overcome whatever difficulties arise. The referral of matrimonial cases to the tribunal should be a last resort.” Catholic Insights, Issue: March 1999
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