If Rome is wrong, where do you go?

[jam070406]

How did this answer any of the questions? What a duck and run.

Here’s an answer, drop the polemics.

 

[surgei]

Here’s an answer, drop the polemics.

Isn’t frank and loving discussion why we are here.
If you use the term polemics in the primary meaning, you say that your position is beyond reproach. By not answering you agree with me that the position of the west is not beyond reproach. “Silence gives agreement” - St Thomas More.
If you use the term in its secondary meaning, the controversy in the Church (in this case the authority of Rome), you obviously didn’t read the OP. The OP is clearly a call to polemics on this topic.

 

[jam070406]

Isn’t frank and loving discussion why we are here.
If you use the term polemics in the primary meaning, you say that your position is beyond reproach. By not answering you agree with me that the position of the west is not beyond reproach. “Silence gives agreement” - St Thomas More.
If you use the term in its secondary meaning, the controversy in the Church (in this case the authority of Rome), you obviously didn’t read the OP. The OP is clearly a call to polemics on this topic.

Beyond reproach for what?
The OP (I believe) is questioning Catholic doctrine. You should learn what the Catholic church truly teaches before you comment on it’s teachings. There is an aplogetics forum you can visit and ask questions. Otherwise your comments come off as uniformed and offensive.

 

[surgei]

Beyond reproach for what?
The OP (I believe) is questioning Catholic doctrine. You should learn what the Catholic church truly teaches before you comment on it’s teachings. There is an aplogetics forum you can visit and ask questions. Otherwise your comments come off as uniformed and offensive.

Sorry, you see me that way. I really do my best to not be offensive but truly provocative. That is I don’t shy away from hard questions. These hard questions have led me to where I am today. These hard questions have men I once called brother not speaking to me because I was baptized by the Orthodox.
I learned my Catholic teachings from Bishop Robert Rose, Bishop Michael Wiwichar and Fr John Hardon of blessed memory.
Bishop Michael, then the Eparch of Chicago and of the west for Ukrainian Greek Catholics, put me under obediance to chant the Divine Liturgy in the event my pastor accepted the invitation from the mother superior of the Carmelite conbent in Canonsberg to celebrate the Liturgy of St John Chrysostem. Bishop Michael was my vladika and I still love him so.
I served Bishop Robert at the ordination of CssR priest Eugene. Bishop Sam Jacobs reproved me on my understanding of Eucharist when I served at his alter.
Fr Hardon was the spiritual father of a little St, St Theresa of Calcutta. Fr. Hardon wrote a series of courses for the Sisters of Charity. I took one of them when he was still alive. Although it was technically corespondance there was a class of us that met weekly and a priest who often met with Fr. Hardon was the moderator of our group. Fr Hardon was in a nursing home when I knew him but still worked twelve hours a day and thought himself lazy. I, at one time, had major sections of both the CLC and the CCEC memorized. The CCC was a book I read and memorized from on the regular. I still read it from time to time when I have someone question me on my understanding of Catholic doctrine.
What I am saying is that I know the Catholic doctrine well. I learned it from the best of the best. I don’t think the questions are off the mark as far as what still divides the Patriarchate of the Occident from the other Patriachates of the Church. If they are, show me.
In summary, if I am uniformed, inform me. If I am offensive, help me find a way to more easily and charitably ask these things. If neither of these is the case, is it the questions themseves that offend?

 

[planter654]

Your arguments are tiresome. It’s typical that you would bypass what the Catholic church actually teaches and base Catholicism on What “some bishops” did or worse, your own personal opinion.

I suggest also reading Job Chapter 38-----41. God ask us all some questions? Then puts me in my place!!

Thank you Praise the Lord well said! God Bless

 

[planter654]

Sorry, you see me that way. I really do my best to not be offensive but truly provocative. That is I don’t shy away from hard questions. These hard questions have led me to where I am today. These hard questions have men I once called brother not speaking to me because I was baptized by the Orthodox.
I learned my Catholic teachings from Bishop Robert Rose, Bishop Michael Wiwichar and Fr John Hardon of blessed memory.
Bishop Michael, then the Eparch of Chicago and of the west for Ukrainian Greek Catholics, put me under obediance to chant the Divine Liturgy in the event my pastor accepted the invitation from the mother superior of the Carmelite conbent in Canonsberg to celebrate the Liturgy of St John Chrysostem. Bishop Michael was my vladika and I still love him so.
I served Bishop Robert at the ordination of CssR priest Eugene. Bishop Sam Jacobs reproved me on my understanding of Eucharist when I served at his alter.
Fr Hardon was the spiritual father of a little St, St Theresa of Calcutta. Fr. Hardon wrote a series of courses for the Sisters of Charity. I took one of them when he was still alive. Although it was technically corespondance there was a class of us that met weekly and a priest who often met with Fr. Hardon was the moderator of our group. Fr Hardon was in a nursing home when I knew him but still worked twelve hours a day and thought himself lazy. I, at one time, had major sections of both the CLC and the CCEC memorized. The CCC was a book I read and memorized from on the regular. I still read it from time to time when I have someone question me on my understanding of Catholic doctrine.
What I am saying is that I know the Catholic doctrine well. I learned it from the best of the best. I don’t think the questions are off the mark as far as what still divides the Patriarchate of the Occident from the other Patriachates of the Church. If they are, show me.
In summary, if I am uniformed, inform me. If I am offensive, help me find a way to more easily and charitably ask these things. If neither of these is the case, is it the questions themseves that offend?

You say you know the Catholic doctrine well, so then please go to JOB; Chapter 38—41 God asks us questions could you please give me the answers? Do not forget to read Job’ replay Chapter 42 thanks.

I will wait for your all your answers tha Job couldn’t thanks

God Bless

 

[surgei]

You say you know the Catholic doctrine well, so then please go to JOB; Chapter 38—41 God asks us questions could you please give me the answers? Do not forget to read Job’ replay Chapter 42 thanks.

I will wait for your all your answers tha Job couldn’t thanks

God Bless

I don’t deny the power of God jack. I deny that Rome has that power in it’s fulness.
Did you read my questions? or are you calling me a fool?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

“I deny that Rome has that power in it’s fulness.” It is not Rome but Peter. Matthew 16:18 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

 

[surgei]

“I deny that Rome has that power in it’s fulness.” It is not Rome but Peter.

The use of the term Rome is synonymous oftentimes with the term Pope, as is the case here. If then you use the term Peter to mean also his successor and say that he has the fulness of the power of Christ our true God, then why hasn’t Pope Benedict XVI or any pope ever created anything. Oh, yeah I forgot, the pope created the Immaculate Conception, the filioqe, his own office as supreme pastor, origonal sin, etc. etc.

 

[surgei]

“I deny that Rome has that power in it’s fulness.” It is not Rome but Peter. Matthew 16:18 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

What one of the fathers of the first ten centuries interpreted that passage as you do? If it is foreign to the fathers should it not also be foreign to you?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

What one of the fathers of the first ten centuries interpreted that passage as you do? If it is foreign to the fathers should it not also be foreign to you?

It was not foreign to Christ.

 

[surgei]

It was not foreign to Christ.

And where did Christ say that your interpretation is right.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter of Cyprian to Quintus, Bishop in Mauretania. A.D. 254/255
…For Peter, whom the Lord chose first and upon whom He built His Church, when Paul later disagreed with him about circumcision, did not claim anything for himself insolently nor assume anthing arrogantly, so as to say that he held the primacy and that he ought rather to be obeyed by novices and those more recently arrived. [Jurgens 592a]

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Surgei

John 21: 15-17 "When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep."

 

[surgei]

St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter of Cyprian to Quintus, Bishop in Mauretania. A.D. 254/255
…For Peter, whom the Lord chose first and upon whom He built His Church, when Paul later disagreed with him about circumcision, did not claim anything for himself insolently nor assume anthing arrogantly, so as to say that he held the primacy and that he ought rather to be obeyed by novices and those more recently arrived. [Jurgens 592a]

Read the passage again.
The bulk of the passage is about Baptism. The part you quote is rather out of context isn’t it.

 

[surgei]

John 21: 15-17 "When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep."

I don’t deny that Peter was restored. I don’t deny that Peter was charged to teach, that is feed lambs.
I deny the assertion that these passages support the Vicar of Christ position of the RC.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

So those receving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin due to contraception or divorce (adultry) is “Right worship” to you?

And everyone receiving in the Latin church is not contracepting nor divorced?

And a “procedure” to declare a marriage non-existent makes it so.

So I’m missing your point.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

An Orthodox friend of mine was telling me that because man in weak his Church okays divorce but only two divorces. I don’t know if that is true or not but that is what he told me. I was thinking why not 3 or 4 four divorces, then? Also, sense man is weak why not allow him to have sex outside of marriage, two times. That does not sound like the true religion.
Also, are not Orthodox Churchs more like regional and national Churchs and not universal?

No. They all say, every Sunday, in their own languages "One, Holy and Catholic/Universal Church. I have to add the Universal, because in many languages (Greek, Slavonic, Arabic, etc) that is the term used.

No, the rules on marriage do not allow 2-3 per customer. Unlike the annullment rules, which as I see them, allow as many annullments as the tribunal is willing to give. The limit of 3 marriages is that if you remarry that many times, something is wrong (and btw, that includes widowhood).

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Your arguments are tiresome. It’s typical that you would bypass what the Catholic church actually teaches and base Catholicism on What “some bishops” did or worse, your own personal opinion.

So those receving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin due to contraception or divorce (adultry) is “Right worship” to you?

 

[planter654]

I don’t deny that Peter was restored. I don’t deny that Peter was charged to teach, that is feed lambs.
I deny the assertion that these passages support the Vicar of Christ position of the RC.

I ask could someone tell me and explain it.

Jesus ask ST Peter three times.

feed my sheep–elders of the church?
feed my lambs—his children of his church
feed my sheep–elders again

Must be important “feed” sheep, “feed” my lambs?
“feed” sheep
Thank you God Bless