If Rome is wrong, where do you go?

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St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter of Cyprian to Quintus, Bishop in Mauretania. A.D. 254/255
…For Peter, whom the Lord chose first and upon whom He built His Church, when Paul later disagreed with him about circumcision, did not claim anything for himself insolently nor assume anthing arrogantly, so as to say that he held the primacy and that he ought rather to be obeyed by novices and those more recently arrived. [Jurgens 592a]
In september, 256, a yet larger council assembled at Carthage. All agreed with Cyprian; Stephen was not mentioned; and some writers have even supposed that the council met before Stephen’s letter was received (so Ritschl, Grisar, Ernst, Bardenhewer). Cyprian did not wish the responsibility to be all his own. He declared that no one made himself a bishop of bishops, and that all must give their true opinion. The vote of each was therefore given in a short speech, and the minutes have come down to us in the Cyprianic correspondence under the title of “Sententiae Episcoporum”. But the messengers sent to Rome with this document were refused an audience and even denied all hospitality by the pope. They returned incontinently to Carthage, and Cyprian tried for support from the East. He wrote to the famous Bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia, Firmilian, sending him the treatise “De Unitate” and the correspondence on the baptismal question. By the middle of November Firmilian’s reply had arrived, and it has come down to us in a translation made at the time in Africa. Its tone is, if possible, more violent than that of Cyprian. (See FIRMILIAN.)
When the baptismal controversy arose, St. Cyprian wished to gain support from the Churches of the East against Pope Stephen for his own decision to rebaptize all heretics who returned to the Church. At the end of the summer of 256, he sent the deacon Rogatian to Firmilian with a letter, together with the documents on the subject–letters of the pope, of his own, and of his council at Carthage in the spring, and the treatise “De Eccl. Cath. Unitate”. Firmilian’s reply was received at Charthage about the middle of November. It is a long letter, even more bitter and violent than that of Cyprian to Pompeius. It has come down to us in a translation made, no doubt, under St. Cyprian’s direction, and apparently very literal, as it abounds in Græcisms (Ep. lxxv among St. Cyprian’s letters). St. Cpyrian’s arguments against St. Stephen are reiterated and reinforced, and the treatise on Unity is laid under contribution. It is particularly interesting to note that the famous fourth chapter of that treatise must have been before the writer of the letter in its original form, and not in the alternative “Roman” form (c. xvi). It is the literal truth when Firmilian says: “We have received your writings as our own, and have committed them to memory by repeated reading” (c. iv)

The reasoning against the validity of heretical baptism is mainly that of St. Cyprian, that those who are outside the Church and have not the Holy Spirit cannot admit others to the Church or give what they do not possess. Firmilian is fond of dilemmas: for instance, either the heretics do not give the Holy Ghost, in which case rebaptism is necessary, or else they do give it, in which case Stephen should not enjoin the laying on of hands. It is important that Firmilian enables us to gather much of the drift of St. Stephen’s letter. It is “ridiculous” that Stephen demanded nothing but the use of the Trinitarian formula. He had appealed to tradition from St. Peter and St. Paul: this is an insult to the Apostles, cries Firmilian, for they execrated heretics. Besides (this is from Cyprian, Ep. lxxiv, 2), “no one could be so silly as to believe this”, for the heretics are all later than the Apostles! And Rome has not preserved the Apostolic traditions unchanged, for it differs from Jerusalem as to the observances at Easter and as to other mysteries. “I am justly indignant with Stephen’s obvious and manifest silliness, that he so boasts of his position, and claims that he is the successor of St. Peter on whom were laid the foundations of the Church; yet he brings in many other rocks, and erects new buildings of many Churches when he defends with his authority the baptism conferred by heretics; for those who are baptized are without doubt numbered in the Church, and he who approves their baptism affirms that there is among them a Church of the baptized.… Stephen, who declares that he has the Chair of Peter by succession, is excited by no zeal against heretics” (c. xvii). “You have cut yourself off–do not mistake–since he is the true schismatic who makes himself an apostate from the communion of ecclesiastical unity. For in thinking that all can be excommunicated by you, you have cut off yourself alone from the communion of all” (c. xxiv).
newadvent.org/cathen/06080b.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/04583b.htm
 
surgie,

Circa A.D. 391 – 430 – St. Augustine of Hippo: “Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among the Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear: ‘I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven.’” [Sermons, qtd in Jurgens 1526]
 
By not answering you agree with me that the position of the west is not beyond reproach. “Silence gives agreement” - St Thomas More.
Maybe he didn’t answer your questions because they’ve all been answered hundreds, if not thousands of times before on this forum. Maybe you should look around a little. I have personally posted ECF quotes about the papacy.
 
I ask could someone tell me and explain it.

Jesus ask ST Peter three times.

feed my sheep–elders of the church?
feed my lambs—his children of his church
feed my sheep–elders again

Must be important “feed” sheep, “feed” my lambs?
“feed” sheep
Thank you God Bless
The resurrected Christ asks Simon Peter…

…***“Do you love me?” ***three times. How is this missed today?

This is a parallel response to him denying the Lord three times.

Christ did say…
" Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father. " Matt 10:32-33

In light of this, Peter had made a huge blunder, it might have been him next to Christ instead of the Good Thief on that great day, but it was not.

When Peter responds “YES LORD” each time he is basically being told to take up his cross. He must “feed the sheep”.

Peter is a loveable character, very human and very flawed. He’s pretty smart, and open to Christ, very trusting and believing but weak in some ways as well…Simon Peter is also a bumbler who wears his heart on his shirtsleeve and appears emotionally fragile.

It seems to be a confession.

This passage is not being read as a high commission to command a church, this is a reconciliation between a fallen man and Our Lord who loves him, a restoration from disgrace and shame, and a charge to carry on.

Feeding sheep is the job of every shepherd.

Michael
 
The resurrected Christ asks Simon Peter…

…***“Do you love me?” ***three times. How is this missed today?

This is a parallel response to him denying the Lord three times.

Christ did say…
" Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father. " Matt 10:32-33

In light of this, Peter had made a huge blunder, it might have been him next to Christ instead of the Good Thief on that great day, but it was not.

When Peter responds “YES LORD” each time he is basically being told to take up his cross. He must “feed the sheep”.

Peter is a loveable character, very human and very flawed. He’s pretty smart, and open to Christ, very trusting and believing but weak in some ways as well…Simon Peter is also a bumbler who wears his heart on his shirtsleeve and appears emotionally fragile.

It seems to be a confession.

This passage is not being read as a high commission to command a church, this is a reconciliation between a fallen man and Our Lord who loves him, a restoration from disgrace and shame, and a charge to carry on.

Feeding sheep is the job of every shepherd.

Michael
Great points Michael.
 
You realize of course these points do not exclude the views of the Catholic Church
 
surgie,

Circa A.D. 391 – 430 – St. Augustine of Hippo: “Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among the Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear: ‘I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven.’” [Sermons, qtd in Jurgens 1526]
This is the same guy that gives us the view of God as a judge seeking vengence instead of a Father who seeks the wellness of his children. This is the guy that couldn’t reed greek and came up with original sin. This guy is going to teach us truth.👍 Does anyone els feel like they are about to be misled when Augustine is quoted?
In a word, your source is invalid as not representing the fulness of the church. However, notice it says Peter represented the whole church not Peter represented Christ. In as much as he may seperate himself off from the church the chair of Peter becomes impeded in its ability to represent Church universal. Therefore since 1054 Rome has spoken for herself. Not in behalf of all and for all.
 
This is the same guy that gives us the view of God as a judge seeking vengence instead of a Father who seeks the wellness of his children. This is the guy that couldn’t reed greek and came up with original sin. This guy is going to teach us truth.👍 Does anyone els feel like they are about to be misled when Augustine is quoted?
In a word, your source is invalid as not representing the fulness of the church. However, notice it says Peter represented the whole church not Peter represented Christ. In as much as he may seperate himself off from the church the chair of Peter becomes impeded in its ability to represent Church universal. Therefore since 1054 Rome has spoken for herself. Not in behalf of all and for all.
Surgei, I think your problem is pride.
 
Surgei, I think your problem is pride.
No my “problem” is that I am stuborn. Stubornly refusing to accept that which was foreign to the Coucils, the Fathers, the Apostles and Christ.
Would that you had that “problem” as well.😃
 
The resurrected Christ asks Simon Peter…

…***“Do you love me?” ***three times. How is this missed today?

This is a parallel response to him denying the Lord three times.

Christ did say…
" Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father. " Matt 10:32-33

In light of this, Peter had made a huge blunder, it might have been him next to Christ instead of the Good Thief on that great day, but it was not.

When Peter responds “YES LORD” each time he is basically being told to take up his cross. He must “feed the sheep”.

Peter is a loveable character, very human and very flawed. He’s pretty smart, and open to Christ, very trusting and believing but weak in some ways as well…Simon Peter is also a bumbler who wears his heart on his shirtsleeve and appears emotionally fragile.

It seems to be a confession.

This passage is not being read as a high commission to command a church, this is a reconciliation between a fallen man and Our Lord who loves him, a restoration from disgrace and shame, and a charge to carry on.

Feeding sheep is the job of every shepherd.

Michael
Thank you Michael I just thought sheep and lamb was referring to what I thought. I thought of it this way. Thanks again!! God Bless
 
If one person was able to get a 100 annulments, that would be an abuse, but one divorce is a Mortal Sin against God.

St. Augustine the Great,
pray for us
 
No my “problem” is that I am stuborn. Stubornly refusing to accept that which was foreign to the Coucils, the Fathers, the Apostles and Christ.
Would that you had that “problem” as well.😃
The Pharisees had that problem with Christ 😉
And of course the Sadducees stubbornly refused everything not in the Pentateuch :rolleyes:

Of course given that it was Rome insisting on the proper interpretations of the councils against those Emperors and Patriarchs who embraced the Christological heresies it makes one wonder about what an interpretation separated from the Pope leads to.
 
Of course given that it was Rome insisting on the proper interpretations of the councils against those Emperors and Patriarchs who embraced the Christological heresies it makes one wonder about what an interpretation separated from the Pope leads to.
They “corrected” in the past to fall away in the present trinitarian herecy.
 
He might very well have the car. And it might very well be that its Manufacturer is neither Rome nor Constantinople.

It might just be that both Rome and Constantinople need to get back to the Manual - which you deem “useless” on its own merit.

“We’re the manufacturer of the Car”

NO! We are.

NO! We are!

NO! NO! NO! We are!"

Could it actually be that neither of you are? 🤷

LOL.​

Which is what is so unproductive & wearisome - all those who claim to be “The One True Church” can agree in making the claim: but none shows its truth by their behaviour. Their self-advertisement & boasting shows what they really are; a *really *Christian Church wouldn’t be obsessed with its own excellence, but would take the lowest place - just as Christ did.

And while all this rivalry is going on, the purpose for which Christ created a Church is ignored. Who *cares *who is superior to whom ? Popes & Patriarchs are going to rot anyway - much use their titles & boasting & authority will be when they’re judged. Men are nothing but grass & dust & wind - so we need Christ; He has no need of us or of any church. To give a mere Church - a thing composed of sinful,ignorant & needy men - the place of Christ, is sheer idolatry.

Let them compete to be crucified & to lay down their lives for their brethren - that is the test of who is superior, of who is really Christian.
 
Where the bishop is, there is the Catholic church.
I disagree, bishops are part of the Roman Catholic church

The catholic or “universal” church is what Jesus intented to build

go to
justforcatholics.org/a180.htm

so, If Rome is wrong, where do you go?

To the word of God, the bible and let God speak to you His truth.

May we all agree on His truth

Fish
 
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