If Satan tempts us, God allows it and is thus partially responsible

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Charlemagne_II said:
I wouldn’t go as far as to say his will is fixed…

Do you mean that he might repent and stop tempting us?
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Satan still has freedom to choose to do good and evil. He is forever damned to hell, however. The angels have free will as we have free will.

I’d like to say he’d want to stop tempting us. 😉

Since angels weren’t redeemed when they fell into hell, they have no chance. The devil hates God and wants to do everything in his power to hurt God. This is his own free choice and it is made purely out of hate.
 
Yes, God does allow evil. It is a necessary by-product of free will. But, even though God allows it, it is not His Will for us.

Evil is not an opposite and equal power. It is the absence of Good. It is simply what results when you choose not to follow God’s Will, (the great and beautiful Good He has planned for us.)

Peace and Blessings,
Terrysa
 
hellopeople said:
Here is my logic:

God is far more powerful than Satan.

Satan can tempt us.

God has the power to stop Satan from tempting us.

There is no way for Satan to tempt us behind God’s back, because God is all knowing.

So, if Satan exists, and he tempts us, God is letting it happen. God knows that Satan is tempting us and says “OK Satan, you can do that.” In my opinion, it is pretty much the same thing as God tempting us Himself, because he could stop it, but chooses not to do so.

Can anyone refute this logic?
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you are both right and wrong, if you want to understand, read these two short books -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18175319
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18087275

they will explain everything you are asking, and then some :3
trust me, you will not be disappointed.

well…you did say you don’t believe in satan though…so i’m not sure how much those books can help you,

satans greatest achievement is to make people believe he does not exist, so i’d give this a little more thought if i were you,
it is a great mistake for us to ever think that we can understand the spiritual even a little bit, because truth be told, we have no understanding of it by either knowledge or experience, of course we have explanations and beliefs regarding the spiritual, but it is one thing to know and believe in these things, it’s an entirely different thing to truly understand it, and we do not…all we can trust in is what God has told us, and we are told that he exists, just as the angels do,
of course many have had their own personal experiences with the devil, but that is clearly not enough to convince others.

you are not completely wrong though in that our temptations come from within ourselves,
but you are wrong in that they come from no other source,
our temptations come from 3 sources, our own selves, the devil, and the world.
but to say that temptation is a product of our free will is to say that evil could come out of something God gave to us as a good gift, which is to say that God is a source of evil, but we know that God is all good and all love, so this cannot be true,
evil is where God is not, evil is not created, but rather a lacking of God who is all goodness,
so where God is not, there is evil,

well, to further understand this, just read those books i listed, it may not help you to believe in the devil, but it will help you in understanding how God works and how He has no part in evil.
 
EmeraldWings said:
you are both right and wrong, if you want to understand, read these two short books -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18175319
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18087275

they will explain everything you are asking, and then some :3
trust me, you will not be disappointed.

well…you did say you don’t believe in satan though…so i’m not sure how much those books can help you,

satans greatest achievement is to make people believe he does not exist, so i’d give this a little more thought if i were you,
it is a great mistake for us to ever think that we can understand the spiritual even a little bit, because truth be told, we have no understanding of it by either knowledge or experience, of course we have explanations and beliefs regarding the spiritual, but it is one thing to know and believe in these things, it’s an entirely different thing to truly understand it, and we do not…all we can trust in is what God has told us, and we are told that he exists, just as the angels do,
of course many have had their own personal experiences with the devil, but that is clearly not enough to convince others.

you are not completely wrong though in that our temptations come from within ourselves,
but you are wrong in that they come from no other source,
our temptations come from 3 sources, our own selves, the devil, and the world.
but** to say that temptation is a product of our free will is to say that evil could come out of something God gave to us as a good gift, which is to say that God is a source of evil, but we know that God is all good and all love, so this cannot be true,**
evil is where God is not, evil is not created, but rather a lacking of God who is all goodness,
so where God is not, there is evil,

well, to further understand this, just read those books i listed, it may not help you to believe in the devil, but it will help you in understanding how God works and how He has no part in evil.
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God created the devil, who is evil, so God is the source of that evil. Right?
 
hellopeople said:
Here is my logic:

God is far more powerful than Satan.

Satan can tempt us.

God has the power to stop Satan from tempting us.

There is no way for Satan to tempt us behind God’s back, because God is all knowing.

So, if Satan exists, and he tempts us, God is letting it happen. God knows that Satan is tempting us and says “OK Satan, you can do that.” In my opinion, it is pretty much the same thing as God tempting us Himself, because he could stop it, but chooses not to do so.

Can anyone refute this logic?
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God created us in His image in love and truth, gave us what we needed ( guidance ) to be with Him forever and then gave us free will to choose Him. He did not create us to force us to be with Him. In His love He freely came down incarnated to pay the price of our sin ( original sin ) and to redeem us. We in turn make the choice freely to follow Him or ( sadly ) not.
Satan wasn’t always evil. He was an angel but he succombed to Pride in order to be equal to or better than God his creator. I believe it’s the same choice we make … ie. do I choose to follow the truth and love of God my creator ( in the commandments ) OR do I think I know better what is right and good for me ? God has given me what I need to make that decision ( an informed conscience ). Now, it’s up to me to choose.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
I wouldn’t go as far as to say his will is fixed…

Do you mean that he might repent and stop tempting us?
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This was Origen’s stance (one of the greatest thinkers of early Christianity)…he did take a lot of flack for it though.
 
I could see where you were going with this from your first post, which you stated later as follows:
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hellopeople:
Personally I don’t think that Satan exists and any temptation that we have comes from within. Our temptations are a product of our own free will.
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I would agree with you. Satan is an invention of man to explain the existence of evil, when evil really exists entirely within us. This has been discussed on previous threads, and in one of them I argued that thesis. Most people for some reason don’t like that idea, and prefer to be able to point the finger elsewhere than themselves.

Here is what Jesus says in Mark 7:
He summoned the crowd again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand.
Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile.”
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Satan does not tempt us from without; Satan is a symbol or metaphor to help explain and visualize the propensity of man to commit sinful acts, for our own much less than perfect behavior, for the bad things we do to others and to ourselves. No one else is to blame except us.
 
chaunceygardner said:
I could see where you were going with this from your first post, which you stated later as follows:

I would agree with you. Satan is an invention of man to explain the existence of evil, when evil really exists entirely within us. This has been discussed on previous threads, and in one of them I argued that thesis. Most people for some reason don’t like that idea, and prefer to be able to point the finger elsewhere than themselves.

Here is what Jesus says in Mark 7:

Satan does not tempt us from without; Satan is a symbol or metaphor to help explain and visualize the propensity of man to commit sinful acts, for our own much less than perfect behavior, for the bad things we do to others and to ourselves. No one else is to blame except us.
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Yes. Exactly.
 
chaunceygardner said:
I could see where you were going with this from your first post, which you stated later as follows:

I would agree with you. Satan is an invention of man to explain the existence of evil, when evil really exists entirely within us. This has been discussed on previous threads, and in one of them I argued that thesis. Most people for some reason don’t like that idea, and prefer to be able to point the finger elsewhere than themselves.

Here is what Jesus says in Mark 7:

Satan does not tempt us from without; Satan is a symbol or metaphor to help explain and visualize the propensity of man to commit sinful acts, for our own much less than perfect behavior, for the bad things we do to others and ourselves. No else is to blame except us.
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Jesus is saying that no one and no temptation forces us to sin, we sin by our own will, but where does he say that the devil does not exist? the bible speaks about the devil on many occasions,
“Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41

" Then the angel Raphael said to him: Hear me, and I will shew thee who they are, over whom the devil can prevail." Tobias 6:16

“Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil.” Ephesians 6:11

“And he laid hold on the dragon the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.” Apocalypse 20:2

“And there came down fire from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Apocalypse 20:9-10

“He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God appeared, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” 1 John 3:8

well, there are many more quotes like these i can list, but i’m sure that’s enough, it kinda knocks your quote off the shelf…which you misinterpreted in the first place…
although if bible quotes are not enough to convince you, then that passage you quoted should mean nothing to you either.

i don’t know where you get the idea that people use the devil as an excuse for their sins, the church tells us that we must accuse ourselves and that no one is to blame for our sins but us, that is why we go to confession and do penance,
i have honestly never heard someone say they are not responsible for their sins because the devil tempted them, i don’t doubt that there are some out there like that, but the number is so few that it is hardly worth making a point out of.

besides, what you quoted says quite plainly that things do enter us from the outside to temp us - “Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person”
it’s saying that even though temptations come to you from outside, they cannot cause your sin, you cause your own sin by giving into it, and therefore you are to blame.
 
Is this entire thread’s purpose to propose that God in some way, however infinitesimal, does evil? The effect of this proposition is to sow the seeds of doubt in the unwary. Lies from the Liar, The Deceiver, Murderer From The Beginning.

Every time a person sins they embrace Satan and throw away God. The Sacrament Of Reconciliation is the recourse.

God in His infinite wisdom permits free will and evil. No one has to choose evil.
 
SophiaLector said:
Yup. God could have made us robots who do everything He wants whenever He wants but He didn’t. He wants us to love Him of our own accord. WE made the choice to sin back in Eden. God didn’t stop us and God didn’t push us. God left us alone to make our own choice.
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You hit the nail on the head. He wants us to love Him freely, to come to Him in joy as a man would approach his bride.

If He did not allow us our free will, then we would be slave-to-master, or like a dog and it’s master. We would not love Him freely, we would be enslaved to Him much as a dog is entirely dependent on its master. This unfortunately is not love.

So God permits our free will to exist. So we can choose to love Him.
 
OraLabora said:
You hit the nail on the head. He wants us to love Him freely, to come to Him in joy as a man would approach his bride.

If He did not allow us our free will, then we would be slave-to-master, or like a dog and it’s master. We would not love Him freely, we would be enslaved to Him much as a dog is entirely dependent on its master. This unfortunately is not love.

So God permits our free will to exist. So we can choose to love Him.
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I don’t have much of a problem with this, BUT where does satan fit into this equation?
 
chaunceygardner

Satan does not tempt us from without; Satan is a symbol or metaphor to help explain and visualize the propensity of man to commit sinful acts, for our own much less than perfect behavior, for the bad things we do to others and to ourselves.

Where does it say in the Bible that Satan is a symbol or metaphor?
 
The Liar (Satan) doesn’t have to “prove” that there is no God, all it has to “prove” is that there is no Liar.

Thus how the fall begins.
 
hellopeople said:
God created the devil, who is evil, so God is the source of that evil. Right?
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No. When God created the devil, he was good. It was only after the devil exercised his free will to separate himself from God did he become evil. The source of the devil’s evil is his personal choice to deny good. We can make the same choice.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
chaunceygardner said:

“Satan does not tempt us from without; Satan is a symbol or metaphor to help explain and visualize the propensity of man to commit sinful acts, for our own much less than perfect behavior, for the bad things we do to others and to ourselves.”

Where does it say in the Bible that Satan is a symbol or metaphor?
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It comes from understanding that most of Genesis (if not all of it) is a metaphorical explanation of man’s relationship with God, and of how the Hebrews became the Chosen People. It is filled with symbolism and other forms of figurative language. Just as much of the teaching of Jesus was done through parables.

Plus, as was discussed in another recent thread, if Satan exists we then have two apparently equal gods (which must be the case if God is not able to vanquish Satan), one of good and one of evil. And oops, there goes monotheism.
 
chaunceygardner said:
It comes from understanding that most of Genesis (if not all of it) is a metaphorical explanation of man’s relationship with God, and of how the Hebrews became the Chosen People. It is filled with symbolism and other forms of figurative language. Just as much of the teaching of Jesus was done through parables.

Plus, as was discussed in another recent thread, if Satan exists we then have two apparently equal gods (which must be the case if God is not able to vanquish Satan), one of good and one of evil. And oops, there goes monotheism.
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Where is Satan ever described as a god?
 
hellopeople said:
Here is my logic:

God is far more powerful than Satan.

Satan can tempt us.

God has the power to stop Satan from tempting us.

There is no way for Satan to tempt us behind God’s back, because God is all knowing.

So, if Satan exists, and he tempts us, God is letting it happen. God knows that Satan is tempting us and says “OK Satan, you can do that.” In my opinion, it is pretty much the same thing as God tempting us Himself, because he could stop it, but chooses not to do so.

Can anyone refute this logic?
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No.
 
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