If Satan was fictional

[VeritasLuxMea]

…he would be in the running for the worst and most nonsensical villain of all time role.

I mean he ranks right up there with every Bond villain who gives 007 an hour to escape his death or any other B-movie villain. In fact, if we were drafting a team of villains, I would even be willing to take Cobra Commander over him. That’s right, Satan is getting picked last on the villain squad.

There are many lines of evidence to support this argument. Here are some:

1. Satan needs help (lots of it!)

A. In Job, he’s so ineffectual that he can’t even do anything evil without the good guy’s permission. Beyond a “conceptual” evil (like drug abuse), can you think of any other villain who not only needs permission to do evil, but needs it from the very same “good guy” that he’s allegedly fighting?

B. Satan’s body of work is so pathetic that he had to wait until more than a millenia after the Bible was completed in order to have others prop him up. In The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis single-handedly invented a Satan that was more dangerous than Satan himself. You know who makes a more intimidating Satan than the real Satan? Al Pacino in the film The Devil’s Advocate. Heck, even the old grandma version of Satan in the film Devil casts a more frightening shadow than the real one.

C. Another way he needs to get propped up is by being retrofitted into stories that he was never a part of in the first place. The guy who really loses out here is that poor serpent in the garden, Satan took all the credit and he was never even there.

1. Satan is an idiot. So one day he’s sitting there in the desert, and if we know the book of Job well enough, he’s probably asking God for permission to sit there in the first place… but I digress…

One day, Satan is hanging out on Earth and he thinks, “Now it is time for my next nefarious plan!” and so he goes ahead and tries to tempt Jesus. And he fails. Of course he fails. He has all the facts he needs, and somehow this bonehead convinces himself that the best way to get back at God is by tempting Him. With what? Well, among others things, with all the kingdoms of the world. But who created all the kingdoms of the world? GOD! You can just picture the expression on his face when it didn’t work out, “Uhhhh… derrrrr…” He’s like the Wile E. Coyote of supernatural beings.

1. Satan is a chronic underachiever. Consider his whole scheme with demonic possession and such. First of all, Jesus just walks around purging the demons all day anyway.

But that failure in and of itself is not so surprising. What’s really surprising is the fact that we, as lowly human beings (theoretically the equivalent of ants to him) have gone ahead and gotten rid of 99.9% of the demons on the planet.

Now granted, it took us many years in the grand scheme of things. Yet at the end of the day, when we started pumping out those anti-hallucinogens, suddenly his whole plan was thrown all off kilter. Now we’re running around the planet trying to find these demons and their population is bordering that of the Dodo bird.

Just consider how epic this failure is for a moment. We’re talking about the cosmic equivalent of Randy Johnson in his prime pitching to Stephen Hawking in his current condition, and what does Stephen Hawking do?

GRAND. SLAM.

Moral of the story: Satan gets picked last.

Mods, I couldn’t decide between Philosophy or Back Fence for this, since I’m somewhat serious but also having fun with it.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

If satan is so weak and helpless why are there untold droves of people in hell? He is not powerless. In fact he is powerful. Infinitely more powerful than us mortals. He was the strongest of the angels. Only God has the power to defeat Him. That is why WE need the power/protection of God to defeat Him. It is foolish to focus so much on satan as that only distracts us from Christ. But it is more foolish to underestimate satan. He has lead millions to hell and will continue to do so until the day of judgement and all the world is judged. Don’t think your love of Christ makes you immune. You invite the wrong kind of attention on you the more you invoke his name. Tread carefully and always keep your eyes on Christ. God Bless.

 

[paperbackwinter]

I agree with the original post but comparing him to Bond villains is a disservice to Bond villains. I think that Satan doesn’t have a master plan. I think he knows that he’s lost. However, he’s so consumed by pride and jealousy that his only comfort is to ensure that someone else doesn’t have what he gave up.

It’s like when you were in grade school and two of your friends had a fight with each other. Satan’s the kid that is more concerned about preventing the other kid from having friends than making his own. He’s trying to hurt God by leading us away. We don’t matter to him. Once he’s lead us astray, he couldn’t care less what happens to us. It’s sad and childish, but that’s what pride is.

Don’t get me wrong, what he does is dangerous and really hurts us. The stakes are indeed high. But when you think of it, it makes you made that he tempts us and causes us to lose such a wonderful gift out of pettiness.

 

[tonyrey]

Mods, I couldn’t decide between Philosophy or Back Fence for this, since I’m somewhat serious but also having fun with it.

Don’t be afraid of having fun with philosophy! There’s nothing more entertaining than getting a materialist tied up in knots…

 

[tonyrey]

If satan is so weak and helpless why are there untold droves of people in hell? He is not powerless. In fact he is powerful. Infinitely more powerful than us mortals. He was the strongest of the angels. Only God has the power to defeat Him. That is why WE need the power/protection of God to defeat Him. It is foolish to focus so much on satan as that only distracts us from Christ. But it is more foolish to underestimate satan. He has lead millions to hell and will continue to do so until the day of judgement and all the world is judged. Don’t think your love of Christ makes you immune. You invite the wrong kind of attention on you the more you invoke his name. Tread carefully and always keep your eyes on Christ. God Bless.

Since we have no idea of who is in hell - apart from Satan - we have no idea of how many there are! People tend to forget there is another possibility - apart from heaven of course.

 

[tonyrey]

I think you underestimate the subtlety of Satan. When we are given the impression that evil is easily recognised and overcome we are easily lured onto the slippery slope of overconfidence which gradually but inexorably leads to our downfall unless we are vigilant:

Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

1 Peter 5:8

All of you must stay awake and pray that you won’t be tempted. The spirit is indeed willing, but the body is weak.

Matt. 26:41

 

[dskysmine]

…he would be in the running for the worst and most nonsensical villain of all time role.

I mean he ranks right up there with every Bond villain who gives 007 an hour to escape his death or any other B-movie villain. In fact, if we were drafting a team of villains, I would even be willing to take Cobra Commander over him. That’s right, Satan is getting picked last on the villain squad.

There are many lines of evidence to support this argument. Here are some:

1. Satan needs help (lots of it!)

A. In Job, he’s so ineffectual that he can’t even do anything evil without the good guy’s permission. Beyond a “conceptual” evil (like drug abuse), can you think of any other villain who not only needs permission to do evil, but needs it from the very same “good guy” that he’s allegedly fighting?

If you would read Job with another mind than a modern Sci-Fi mind you would understand the great lesson that Job’s book is of the Problem of Evil.
You read too literally that the Devil “had” to ask God to punish Job… it is a lesson to tell us that God allows for Evil to exist but He is not the cause of it. You really think that the Devil could even stand in front of God after being cast out?

B. Satan’s body of work is so pathetic that he had to wait until more than a millenia after the Bible was completed in order to have others prop him up. In The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis single-handedly invented a Satan that was more dangerous than Satan himself. You know who makes a more intimidating Satan than the real Satan? Al Pacino in the film The Devil’s Advocate. Heck, even the old grandma version of Satan in the film Devil casts a more frightening shadow than the real one.

Your understanding of dangerous is extremely skewed…

C. Another way he needs to get propped up is by being retrofitted into stories that he was never a part of in the first place. The guy who really loses out here is that poor serpent in the garden, Satan took all the credit and he was never even there.

Says who?

1. Satan is an idiot. So one day he’s sitting there in the desert, and if we know the book of Job well enough, he’s probably asking God for permission to sit there in the first place… but I digress…

One day, Satan is hanging out on Earth and he thinks, “Now it is time for my next nefarious plan!” and so he goes ahead and tries to tempt Jesus. And he fails. Of course he fails. He has all the facts he needs, and somehow this bonehead convinces himself that the best way to get back at God is by tempting Him. With what? Well, among others things, with all the kingdoms of the world. But who created all the kingdoms of the world? GOD! You can just picture the expression on his face when it didn’t work out, “Uhhhh… derrrrr…” He’s like the Wile E. Coyote of supernatural beings.

This is a complete debauchery of the great mistery of the Incarnation. For Jesus to save us he had to come into a sinful world, and still not sin to be able to save us! Do you think that if that “story” was not in there anyone would even remotely think that Jesus was fully human and yet fully God?

1. Satan is a chronic underachiever. Consider his whole scheme with demonic possession and such. First of all, Jesus just walks around purging the demons all day anyway.

But that failure in and of itself is not so surprising. What’s really surprising is the fact that we, as lowly human beings (theoretically the equivalent of ants to him) have gone ahead and gotten rid of 99.9% of the demons on the planet.

Now granted, it took us many years in the grand scheme of things. Yet at the end of the day, when we started pumping out those anti-hallucinogens, suddenly his whole plan was thrown all off kilter. Now we’re running around the planet trying to find these demons and their population is bordering that of the Dodo bird.

Just consider how epic this failure is for a moment. We’re talking about the cosmic equivalent of Randy Johnson in his prime pitching to Stephen Hawking in his current condition, and what does Stephen Hawking do?

GRAND. SLAM.

Moral of the story: Satan gets picked last.

Mods, I couldn’t decide between Philosophy or Back Fence for this, since I’m somewhat serious but also having fun with it.

Demonic possession as in the likes of the Exorcist are not something that the Devil really cares for. Do you think that once there are no more needs for Exorcists there will be no Evil in the world? How do you think you were tempted to do all the sins that you did until today? Or do you honestly think you have never sinned?

You seem pretty naive…
Sure… if you read most of the things written of Satan they don’t seem to make a lot of sense… but that is because he never wrote them, they were written of him and they were written by the Inspiration of God… not something to tread lightly.

I know you were having fun with this but it really doesn’t help understanding the mistery behind it.

God Bless,
Daniel

 

[Bob_Crowley]

1. Satan needs help (lots of it!)

A. In Job, he’s so ineffectual that he can’t even do anything evil without the good guy’s permission. Beyond a “conceptual” evil (like drug abuse), can you think of any other villain who not only needs permission to do evil, but needs it from the very same “good guy” that he’s allegedly fighting?

Every act of evil is done with God’s permission. If being tortured in a Gestapo basement is evidence of being ineffective, that’s the first time I’ve heard of it.

B. Satan’s body of work is so pathetic that he had to wait until more than a millenia after the Bible was completed in order to have others prop him up. In The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis single-handedly invented a Satan that was more dangerous than Satan himself. You know who makes a more intimidating Satan than the real Satan? Al Pacino in the film The Devil’s Advocate. Heck, even the old grandma version of Satan in the film Devil casts a more frightening shadow than the real one.

CS Lewis’ Screwtape Letters was a send-up. If you ever come face to face with the devil, you’ll find him a lot more intimidating than that. For some odd reason, the image that always reminds me of Satan is that of a panther staring at you with it’s cold green eyes, and vicious teeth.

C. Another way he needs to get propped up is by being retrofitted into stories that he was never a part of in the first place. The guy who really loses out here is that poor serpent in the garden, Satan took all the credit and he was never even there.

He was there in some form. Ever had a close encounter with a deadly snake? I remember a pastor telling us a story where he was following his father through long grass on their property. Then he suddenly found he couldn’t move. His father came back to see what was holding him up, and as he did so saw a death adder right where his son would have taken his next step. For whatever reason, he’d been forcibly prevented by an unseen spiritual entity from taking that next step. He just couldn’t move.

And that’s what God does a lot of the time with us. We’re often protected, but we don’t see it.

1. Satan is an idiot. So one day he’s sitting there in the desert, and if we know the book of Job well enough, he’s probably asking God for permission to sit there in the first place… but I digress…

One day, Satan is hanging out on Earth and he thinks, “Now it is time for my next nefarious plan!” and so he goes ahead and tries to tempt Jesus. And he fails. Of course he fails. He has all the facts he needs, and somehow this bonehead convinces himself that the best way to get back at God is by tempting Him. With what? Well, among others things, with all the kingdoms of the world. But who created all the kingdoms of the world? GOD! You can just picture the expression on his face when it didn’t work out, “Uhhhh… derrrrr…” He’s like the Wile E. Coyote of supernatural beings.

The temptation to Christ would have been powerful because Christ would know what the kingdoms of the world do to people - slavery, crucifixion, torture, war, empire building. What Satan was allegedly offering was a chance to stop all those things.

1. Satan is a chronic underachiever. Consider his whole scheme with demonic possession and such. First of all, Jesus just walks around purging the demons all day anyway.

But that failure in and of itself is not so surprising. What’s really surprising is the fact that we, as lowly human beings (theoretically the equivalent of ants to him) have gone ahead and gotten rid of 99.9% of the demons on the planet.

Garbage. They’re still there. But they work in less obvious ways. They’ve managed to convince a lot of us it’s a virtue to kill millions of our own unborn children. They now work through the system, and not so openly. They’ve convinced us it’s OK to shack up together.

Now granted, it took us many years in the grand scheme of things. Yet at the end of the day, when we started pumping out those anti-hallucinogens, suddenly his whole plan was thrown all off kilter. Now we’re running around the planet trying to find these demons and their population is bordering that of the Dodo bird.

Just consider how epic this failure is for a moment. We’re talking about the cosmic equivalent of Randy Johnson in his prime pitching to Stephen Hawking in his current condition, and what does Stephen Hawking do?

GRAND. SLAM.

Moral of the story: Satan gets picked last.

Mods, I couldn’t decide between Philosophy or Back Fence for this, since I’m somewhat serious but also having fun with it.

Sorry, but I didn’t find it very convincing. But then I had the experience of my own father appearing in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end he disappeared. But just before he disappeared, he gave this absolutely terrifying scream, and it was obvious he was in terrible fear of something coming for him. I think he’s in hell, and I think he saw either the devil, demons or hell approaching. That was 33 years ago, and I still remember the scream.

Don’t kid yourself about Satan. He’s powerful, intelligent, totally evil, and bent on our destruction.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I said above I found the image of a snarling panther reminded me of Satan. I suppose it was more of a stylised image, but I found the sort of thing I meant on the net at the following link -

media.photobucket.com/image/black%20panther/zilchsniper/Black_Panther.jpg?o=20

 

[wcknight]

For some, Satan may not be much of a threat. BUT for many others, folks who are easily tempted and who easily fall prey, Satan is a destroyer of souls.

Each of us are ultimately responsible for our own decisions, but folks who are spiritually weak or lack any sense of proper behavior can more easily be tempted and fall to Satan lures. Look at all the problems in the world, and you would think that Satan is winning, murders, robberies, assaults, terrorism, abortions, corruption of public officials, corporate greed, etc… ALL of the seven deadly sins are still well in play.

We are far from being perfectly safe from Satan. With prayer, our faith and our Church, we may not personally be at risk but what about our friends and loved ones. The fight against Satan and sin is far from over. He will lose in the long run, but he is taking down a lot of souls in the mean time, even one lost soul is one too many.

 

[Gaber]

There is, indeed an “adversary.” But it has been personalized into a figure opposite God, nearly as in Zoroastrianism. That personalization has diverted attention from that actual dynamic of what is called Satan. Therefore the world is the domain of Satan, as many claim, even in ignorance.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

If satan is so weak and helpless why are there untold droves of people in hell?

I’m not sure that there are droves of people in hell. Are you?

Still, I don’t think it’s too relevant because God is the one responsible for hell. He created Hell, he is the Lord of Hell, he could remove anyone from Hell if he so desires.

He is not powerless. In fact he is powerful. Infinitely more powerful than us mortals.

I believe I have laid out a case that scripture indicates otherwise, so I’d like to hear any contrary evidence.

He was the strongest of the angels. Only God has the power to defeat Him. That is why WE need the power/protection of God to defeat Him. It is foolish to focus so much on satan as that only distracts us from Christ.

I’m not opposed to that, but a lot of people do focus on Satan and that’s why this discussion is so important. Based on the movies and literature you would think Satan is such a powerful creature but where in scripture does it show that? Where in scripture does he kill anyone for example? God is killing people all the time all over the scriptures, so why aren’t we more fearful of him?

But it is more foolish to underestimate satan. He has lead millions to hell and will continue to do so until the day of judgement and all the world is judged.

Based on what?

You invite the wrong kind of attention on you the more you invoke his name. Tread carefully and always keep your eyes on Christ. God Bless.

I have challenged him to appear thousands of times.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

There is, indeed an “adversary.” But it has been personalized into a figure opposite God, nearly as in Zoroastrianism. That personalization has diverted attention from that actual dynamic of what is called Satan. Therefore the world is the domain of Satan, as many claim, even in ignorance.

Thanks, this makes a TON of sense to me. That is what I think is going on. People are acting as if Satan is the same as Ahriman. But he isn’t. That has no basis in scripture.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Veritas

Challenging the devil is no smarter than challenging a tiger or a snake.

Don’t get carried away with invincibility. The devil proves his power through possession.

It is wiser to flee Satan than to confront him.

 

[tonyrey]

Veritas

Challenging the devil is no smarter than challenging a tiger or a snake.

Don’t get carried away with invincibility. The devil proves his power through possession.

It is wiser to flee Satan than to confront him.

I was once horrified by a evil look - lasting only a second - in the eyes of a woman who committed suicide a few days later by walking along a railway track. I’m convinced she was possessed…

 

[dskysmine]

I’m not sure that there are droves of people in hell. Are you?

Of course…
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

Still, I don’t think it’s too relevant because God is the one responsible for hell. He created Hell, he is the Lord of Hell, he could remove anyone from Hell if he so desires.

God can’t “remove” people from Hell… they chose to do so… unless you don’t believe in the same Hell that the Church teaches.

I believe I have laid out a case that scripture indicates otherwise, so I’d like to hear any contrary evidence.

You can look at it from different angles.
First, it can be that Scripture does indicate that Satan has a lot of power, but you simply cannot read “Satan has a lot of Power” in the Bible… (just check the first passage that I quoted.
Second, if Satan is against the Scripture and he is powerful, why would he let on his reputation in a way that would make everybody concentrate their efforts against him? That would simply be non logical from an “evil” perspective.
Third, if History is written by the Winners it makes sense that the Bible would put God ahead of Satan, as there is absolutely no comparison between puny demon and the Lord of all Creation. That doesn’t mean that he isn’t powerful… just that his power can’t even compare to the power of God.

I’m not opposed to that, but a lot of people do focus on Satan and that’s why this discussion is so important. Based on the movies and literature you would think Satan is such a powerful creature but where in scripture does it show that? Where in scripture does he kill anyone for example? God is killing people all the time all over the scriptures, so why aren’t we more fearful of him?

I’m not so sure that people focus a lot on Satan… I’d say you have a very skewed view… especially nowadays where Fiction seems to outweigh any religious motif.
Satan doesn’t win anything by killing someone without a purpose… he wants to steal people’s Love for God, he is not the “Grim Reaper”.

Based on what?

I have challenged him to appear thousands of times.

You might think it is funny to do so… but that is the same kind of logic that atheists use about God… do you really expect Satan to obey to a puny human? He is a Spirit, and he can influence your life without you even knowing… he can tempt your children into sin, he can tempt you into sin, he can tempt you into having too much pride to realize you should be spending your time worshiping the Lord of Creation instead of defying demons for a fight…
I’m just having fun.
God Bless.
Daniel

 

[Gaber]

Thanks, this makes a TON of sense to me. That is what I think is going on. People are acting as if Satan is the same as Ahriman. But he isn’t. That has no basis in scripture.

What has scripture got to dowith it? Also, did I say “same,” or was that someone else?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

tonyrey

**I was once horrified by a evil look - lasting only a second - in the eyes of a woman who committed suicide a few days later by walking along a railway track. I’m convinced she was possessed… **

I’ve had a similar experience. Once, walking down a hallway, a woman approached me. She never looked my way, her head was bowed, but I had the sudden sense of being in the presence of evil. I was really relieved when she passed by me and out of sight.

I’ve never had the experience before or since, thank God!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’ve also had the experience of something gripping me during the night, and on a couple of occasions of the bed shaking, as part of the process. I know others on this forum have experienced something similar, because I’ve seen them say so.

And they’re pretty strong. The only thing that’s stronger is God, and His angels. So when the grip ceases, as far as I’m concerned, it’s been ripped away by a “good” spirit, and certainly not by my own strength. I may as well try to stop a ten ton truck single handed.

 

[jagger3320]

I don’t really think satan would want to run for the meanest, ugliest, and villanist role. he run for the nicest and most innocent role possible, to decieve us so we can breath in his foggy philosophy that he convinces us is innocent and good because we’re not hurting anyone