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Chancellare
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If that’s what you say, then that settles it. You have the RIGHT interpretations already. The whole Catholic Church, including the other thousands of denoms who differ from yours should shut up.
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bengal_fan
Guest
so do the gnostics.
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Chancellare
Guest
If the Bible was made by a Church with no authority, then what do you say of the Bible’s authority? Not if you say the Bible landed on Luther’s table straight from heaven. Your argument is like sawing off the wrong end of the branch you are standing on.
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bengal_fan
Guest
the bible wasn’t made by the church at all. it was put together by the church. it was required to have (for each book of the NT) a legitimate tie to an apostle AND be consistent with what the entire church (not just the bishop of Rome) taught as orthodox. the church as a whole agreed (with some dissension, but they all held to the council’s ruling) on which books this included. again, it wasn’t just one church, but all the churches acting as one. not one protestant says the bible just fell in luther’s lap. most would agree that it takes a group of Christians together to make those decisions. this is why we have churches and pastors (to lead in the decision making process, not to act as a dictator or anything).
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c659smith
Guest
But Jesus never referred to his Church as Churches but Church.
Peter you are the rock that I will beuild my Church singular.
In Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, English can not having an “S” be translated here.
In 3 days I will re-build my Temple.
Or is Protestantism creating their own Sacred Teachings not from the Bible
Peter you are the rock that I will beuild my Church singular.
In Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, English can not having an “S” be translated here.
In 3 days I will re-build my Temple.
Or is Protestantism creating their own Sacred Teachings not from the Bible
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Milliardo
Guest
Just to emphasize on a point–Peter and Paul have been martyred, and few Protestants I know would say they both walked off and led a life into old age. Yet, this was never recorded in the Bible, and Protestants take it as fact. How then can you say that you will only hold fast to this when this is not recorded in Scripture? Or are we going to give out exceptions to this rule now?
Orthodoxy does not dispute the lineage of the bishops of Rome; this is recorded in history. What is disputed is the nature of this lineage (scope of authority and jurisdiction)–but this is for another thread obviously.
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Milliardo
Guest
There is truth to what is sad, that the Church made the Bible, as the Church is composed of the people of God. So then, we can see that the Church made and put together the Bible.
You seem to confuse some terms here; the Church did certainly make the canon of the Bible. What you mean as “all the churches” are the various Christian communities; however, they were not distinct churches, made up with this or that notion like that in Protestantism. Rather, they were communities with a united Creed and belief. Perhaps the best model for this is Eastern Orthodoxy, wherein there are jurisdictions held by each Patriarchate, and with this there is a distinction as to affiliation and nationality, but still held together by a common belief and faith in Orthodoxy.
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old_school
Guest
Ok let me ask a few simple questions maybe someone could help me out…
- Following the Scripture Alone “theory”, then where in the bible does it say that it is the sole source?
- Wouldnt something this important need to be in the bible if it was a requirement in which our salvation hinged?
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2ndGen
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2ndGen
Guest
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2ndGen
Guest
Really?
What’s your source for this information?
As for what faith was “all the churches acting as one”?
When “churches” act as one, we call that a “Church”. That’s one of the defining traits of The Catholic Church according to The Apostles Creed (“one”, holy, catholic & apostolic…where many churches from around the world can be “one” at the sam time).
See, that’s what confuses me. If what you say is true, that “most would agree that it takes a group of Christians together to make those decisions. this is why we have churches and pastors (to lead in the decision making process, not to act as a dictator or anything).”
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Chancellare
Guest
Thanks for recognizing the Catholic Church - the only Church you can possibly mention here. Isn’t it nice to agree on something done by the Catholic Church for once?
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2ndGen
Guest
Really?
What’s your source for this information?
As for what faith was “all the churches acting as one”?
When “churches” act as one, we call that a “Church”. That’s one of the defining traits of The Catholic Church according to The Apostles Creed (“one”, holy, catholic & apostolic…where many churches from around the world can be “one” at the sam time).
See, that’s what confuses me. If what you say is true, that “most would agree that it takes a group of Christians together to make those decisions. this is why we have churches and pastors (to lead in the decision making process, not to act as a dictator or anything).”
I thoroughly respect your point of view and accept it. Matter of fact, The Catholic Church was founded on these principles. of “common union”.
But Protestantism was founded on principles of self revelation, the abolishment of The Priesthood, the “non-needing” of a clergy or of a single unifying leader (all things that the original Church had in the book of Acts).
So how can a group base their revolt on being self sufficient spiritually, but then do the exact thing that they criticized us for? What does that tell you about them?
As we all know, the abuses experienced in Catholicism through the actions of some “men” wasn’t spared in Protestantism. So if in their leaving The Church they thought that they’d have a perfect “church” by doing it man’s way, they found that they were wrong.
I’m sorry. My tyraid isn’t about my being anti-Protestantism. It’s just that I’ve com up against some rabid anti-Catholics and I’m not used to Protestants with common sense.
See, you, (and pretty much every other Protestant that graces our forum) are good Christians. It’s an education to me that you guys believe that a pastor is “needed” to help interpret Scripture.
If anti-Catholics would be honest and just say that God chooses men to lead us spiritually and to guide us, then they couldn’t criticize the Priesthood anymore.
Any reasonable human being knows that according to the very standards of Sola Scriptura, Sola Scriptura doesn’t exist in Scripture itself, therefore, is a man-made Doctrine and is not to be placed over Scripture itself.
Of course, any reasonable Catholic knows that God speaks to us individually, but we readily admit what The Scripture themselves reveal to us about the need for a man chosen by God to help us with understanding it:
Acts 8:
27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
This verse teaches us that if Scripture was self revealing, the Ethiopian wouldn’t have needed for it to be interpreted by Philip.
And it was God who through an angel that moved Philip to do this good work.
Therefore, The Universal Priesthood of Christ is still valid today just as are those men that God chooses to preach to those outside of The Church are valid. It’s not the particular church that validates a man’s worthiness to interpret Scripture, but God Himself and NO MAN is anyone to judge who God ordains whether through The Catholic Church or through any other faith.
Only God knows who’s pleasing Him and Romans 2 teaches us that we don’t have to all be of one homogenuous group to worship and please Him.
I think this rant was well worth the text.
Amen.
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jblake
Guest
2ndGen;:
Different organizations count members differently.
There is a large discrepancy between the number of people who report attending a church service in the last three months, and the number of people that churches report attending a service in the last three months. Due to their small numbers, home churches, and similar institutions that don’t get tagged in those church statistics do not appear to account for that discrepancy.
xan
jonathon
It doesn’t matter whose figures you take, they will be misleading.
Different organizations count members differently.
- Some organization counts everybody who lives within a certain distance of their church as a member;
- Some organization only counts clergy as members;
- Some organization counts everybody who attends their church at least once during a period of time as a member;
- Some organization only counts those who have been baptized by the specific church, and attends a church service there every week as members;
- Some organizations don’t bother counting people at all;
- Some organizations only remove individuals if their death has been independently confirmed;
There is a large discrepancy between the number of people who report attending a church service in the last three months, and the number of people that churches report attending a service in the last three months. Due to their small numbers, home churches, and similar institutions that don’t get tagged in those church statistics do not appear to account for that discrepancy.
xan
jonathon
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jblake
Guest
2ndGen;:
xan
jonathon
Brush up on the Home Church Movement.
xan
jonathon
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DLC
Guest
We need pastors because the Bible tells us we doEph 4:11-14
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, **and some as pastors **and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
NASU
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, **and some as pastors **and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
NASU
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2ndGen
Guest
Yeah, and that was an issue that I didn’t even plan on discussing, but when something that I believe to be untrue is said about Catholicism, I can’t help “but” research the issue, provide at least some semblance of proof and leave it at that.l
Generally speaking? I know that Catholic Churches have been bulging at the seams. Because of the financial stresses on The Church now, parishes have been closed and consolidated, but I’ve never seen Masses as packed as I’ve seen since 9/11.
I’d argue that Protestants have also experienced growth in their membership (as have Muslims).
But to say that the Catholic Church is losing members simply isn’t truthful. As I’ve stated, it grows at a rate of about 2% a year for for a Church with 1.2+Billion documented adherents, thats an easy average of 2.4Million new Catholics yearly.
The conversion rate of Protestant to Catholic has exploded for sure especially over the last few years.
Catholics converting to Protestantism has always been happening (since the 1500’s), so that’s nothing new, but Protestants becomming Catholic in the numbers their converting is new.
I attribute this to more people having acces freely and more conveniently through the media and/or the internet.
The more the truth is known, the better armed one is to make decisions.
Reminds me of what a great Protestant Theologians once said:
“To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”
John Henry Newman
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Chancellare
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2ndGen
Guest
Thank you!
So everything that Scritpure is to be taken then as it’s meant, right?
Again…no one that states that we need pastors can never criticize the universal Christian Church for having pastors too.
Reminds me of what Jesus said to the effect that he that speaks for Him cannot speak against us.
Amen.
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jblake
Guest
2ndGen;:
This also leads back to “what has happened to the Priests?” Supply has not kept up with demand. Worldwide, there is a shortage of Catholic priests. If the number of adherents is going up each year, then the number of priests should also be going up each year — not remaining flat, or going down.
The way that the Catholic Church measures its membership distorts the number of members it has.
Numbers are increasing from conversions by Protestants, and non-Christians. At the same time, the Catholic Church does not remove from the membership rolls those who have converted to other religions, or switched denominations, or are simply “lapsed catholics.”
The conventional wisdom is that church growth in the US is fueled by the switching of denominational affiliation, not the conversion from non-Christian to Christian. It is only in the 10-40 belt that conversion from non-Christians fuels the growth rate. Everywhere else, denomination switching, and non-Christian conversion are more or less equal in pushing the numbers up.
xan
jonathon
That is one of the primary reasons why everybody but Catholics disputes the official numbers of the Catholic Church. If the numbers are increasing, then the number of parishes should remain the same, if not increase.
This also leads back to “what has happened to the Priests?” Supply has not kept up with demand. Worldwide, there is a shortage of Catholic priests. If the number of adherents is going up each year, then the number of priests should also be going up each year — not remaining flat, or going down.
The statistical evidence indicates that church attendance has gone up since then. It also suggests that people are embracing religion more now, than before then.
Being much more blunt.
The way that the Catholic Church measures its membership distorts the number of members it has.
Numbers are increasing from conversions by Protestants, and non-Christians. At the same time, the Catholic Church does not remove from the membership rolls those who have converted to other religions, or switched denominations, or are simply “lapsed catholics.”
The conventional wisdom is that church growth in the US is fueled by the switching of denominational affiliation, not the conversion from non-Christian to Christian. It is only in the 10-40 belt that conversion from non-Christians fuels the growth rate. Everywhere else, denomination switching, and non-Christian conversion are more or less equal in pushing the numbers up.
xan
jonathon
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