If Scripture Alone is sufficient, why do you need a "pastor"?

[jmcrae]

That is one of the primary reasons why everybody but Catholics disputes the official numbers of the Catholic Church. If the numbers are increasing, then the number of parishes should remain the same, if not increase.

This is due to the shortage of priests; not to a shortage of members. Too few members are becoming priests. Our Catholic population here in Calgary has doubled, since I became Catholic but we only have two thirds the number of priests, so we have consolidated parishes, and we are building huge buildings to house all the members.

My parish church only holds 500 people, so we have to have five Masses every weekend. But the newer parish churches (built in the last five years) hold more than 2,000 people, and even so, they are still having three or four Masses every weekend to accomodate all of the people.

It is also not because of a shortage of vocations, but rather, because too many young men are not following their vocations, out of a mistaken idea that they will not be happy if they follow God’s will for their lives.

 

[Albmore]

Interestingly, there is a trend among Protestants to abandon “church” and go it alone, or in small “home churches” or “family churches” where Dad is the “pastor.”

So Protestants are asking themselves the same question as the OP.

This is done for many of reasons. One the closer fellowship. I know many who feel lost in a large congragations. If you look at some trendly problems in the Catholic Church, (pedophiles) many there are also reluctant to what is going on in the larger church.

 

[Albmore]

This is due to the shortage of priests; not to a shortage of members. Too few members are becoming priests. Our Catholic population here in Calgary has doubled, since I became Catholic but we only have two thirds the number of priests, so we have consolidated parishes, and we are building huge buildings to house all the members.

My parish church only holds 500 people, so we have to have five Masses every weekend. But the newer parish churches (built in the last five years) hold more than 2,000 people, and even so, they are still having three or four Masses every weekend to accomodate all of the people.

It is also not because of a shortage of vocations, but rather, because too many young men are not following their vocations, out of a mistaken idea that they will not be happy if they follow God’s will for their lives.

Only a small point the bible talks of a falling away in the Jesus church in the last days and that the anti christ church would grow.

 

[2ndGen]

That is one of the primary reasons why everybody but Catholics disputes the official numbers of the Catholic Church. If the numbers are increasing, then the number of parishes should remain the same, if not increase.

Demographics my brother. Neighborhoods change. For example, where there was a strong Irish or Polish or Puerto Rican community, there was usually only one Catholic Church that served a wide area. Now, as those groups have moved out of those areas and different members of different communities come in, they set up different churche (usually in store fronts or Catholic Churches that were sold or new wharehouse type structures or old movie theaters). Then, just like Christianity, instead of having one unified Church, there are dozens of separate churches teaching different beliefs about the same Jesus.

This also leads back to “what has happened to the Priests?” Supply has not kept up with demand. Worldwide, there is a shortage of Catholic priests. If the number of adherents is going up each year, then the number of priests should also be going up each year — not remaining flat, or going down.

Amen to that…The Church has grown at such a pace that supply can’t keep up with demand! what a beautiful thing! Do you think that 12 Apostles were enough alone to convert the world?

God will provide His Priests. He always has, and always will. During the Dark Ages, about I believe that 1/3 or 2/3’s of the clergy died because they were serving the sick and dieing of the Black Plague. This is what led to the abuses of the clergy of The Church and what contributed to The Reformation.

Satan attacked mankind and The Church with the plague, he tried to bring the gates of hell against God’s Church, man responded with The Reformation. In the end (of course) Satan failed to destroy The Church and man failed to re-form her.



By the way, you never povided the source of your information that I asked of you.

Do you have an actual source or is this something you heard?

 

[2ndGen]

If you look at some trendly problems in the Catholic Church, (pedophiles) many there are also reluctant to what is going on in the larger church.

Well, “pedophilia” is nowhere near as rampant in The Catholic Church as it is among the Protestant Church.

There are about 240 instances reported in The Catholic Church yearly.

Know how many instances of Pedophilia there are reported in the Protestant Church in the United States alone?

Try over 3,500! That’s almost one hundred instances per day!

A Protestant Source:

csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

www.Reformation.com

So, let he that is without sin cast the first stone…or more appropriately, remove the log from your eye before you attempt to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.

(Jesus, circa 30 AD)

 

[jmcrae]

Only a small point the bible talks of a falling away in the Jesus church in the last days and that the anti christ church would grow.

We have the assurance of Christ’s promises to the St. Peter, our first Pope, which cannot fail, so “the anti-Christ church,” whatever it may turn out to be, is not the Catholic Church.

 

[c659smith]

In the conclussion of John he states"It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that This testimony is true.

There are also many other things that Jesus did,but if these were to be described individually, I do not think this whole world could contain the books that would be written.

Does one dismiss all these things?

In Matthew

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit.
Teaching them to observe*** all that I have commanded you***, and behold I am with you always until the end of the age.

In John he explains that all that Christ did and taught them would not fit in any one book, do we dismiss all that and only teach what is in the bible and not tradition and sacred teachings that were handed down since the time of and by our Lord?

 

[2ndGen]

In the conclussion of John he states"It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that This testimony is true.

There are also many other things that Jesus did,but if these were to be described individually, I do not think this whole world could contain the books that would be written.

Does one dismiss all these things?

In Matthew

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit.
Teaching them to observe*** all that I have commanded you***, and behold I am with you always until the end of the age.

In John he explains that all that Christ did and taught them would not fit in any one book, do we dismiss all that and only teach what is in the bible and not tradition and sacred teachings that were handed down since the time of and by our Lord?

The easy answer to this thread is that Sola Scriptura does not exist in Scritpture.

Also, I’ve learned that Protestants (though not all) admit that they need a Pastor to help them with interpretation. That was an eye opening admission to me. I have a new respect for those that confessed this.

Way to go!

 

[FredSmith]

If Scripture Alone is sufficient for personal revelation,
why do you need the following:

• church building

Because the church needs a place to meet.

• fellowship

To edify one another, hold one another accountable, encourage one another.

• pastor

For the preaching and teaching of God’s word, for leadership, for prayer, for counseling.

• Sunday school

To study God’s word.

• supporting texts (concordances, Encyclopedias, commentaries, etc…)

To study God’s word.

• bible studies

To study God’s word.

According to “Sola Scripturaists”, the bible is supposed to be enough by itself and needs no interpretor.

What “sola scriptuaist” says this?

 

[jmcrae]

What “sola scriptuaist” says this?

There are plenty of “lone rangers” out there who believe that church - any church - is “the whore of babylon,” and that meeting together in a church building, or having a paid minister in authority over a group of Christians, is offensive to God.

They literally read the Bible alone - no other books - no concordances, no commentaries, and absolutely no philosophers, Church Fathers, etc., and also no magazines, story books, or anything else. They own literally one book: a Bible, usually a King James Bible. They don’t go to Church, they don’t pray for others, they don’t participate in service activities; they worship at home alone or with others who live in the same house with them, but they don’t go out, or associate with other Christians at all, in case of “contamination” with the world, or with denominational politics, etc.

 

[YADA]

If Scripture Alone is sufficient,

then you have only one external need …

A Publisher

 

[jmcrae]

If Scripture Alone is sufficient,

then you have only one external need …

A Publisher

Good point. (And a bookseller, too.)

 

[YADA]

Good point. (And a bookseller, too.)

Yup … then I guess you need a truck driver to get from the publisher to the book store and a lumber jack to fell the trees and a paper mill to make the paper …

Wait, the atuomotive inndustry to build the truck, the steel industry to create the raw materials, machinists … accountants, lunch cart vendors …

OH NO!!! we are recognizing a world of need …

Guess the Bible Alone is just not gona work

 

[jmcrae]

Guess the Bible Alone is just not gona work

Nope. I guess there’s no such thing, then.

 

[jblake]

jmcrae;:

It is also not because of a shortage of vocations, but rather, because too many young men are not following their vocations, out of a mistaken idea that they will not be happy if they follow God’s will for their lives.

The history of the “priest problem” goes right back to the reforms brought by Vatican II. With population growth, the decline in priests is merely accentuating the problems that Vatican II inflicted on Catholic Christiantiy.
2ndGen;:

Demographics my brother. Neighborhoods change.

Even with a change in demographics, parishes should be opening and closing at roughly the same rate.

The Church has grown at such a pace that supply can’t keep up with demand!

It is not a case of supply not keeping up with demand, but rather supply not even replacing itself.

By the way, you never provided the source of your information that I asked of you.

What information? (Probably best to send me an email. )

xan

jonathon

 

[jblake]

Demographics my brother. Neighborhoods change. For example, where there was a strong Irish or Polish or Puerto Rican community, there was usually only one Catholic Church that served a wide area. Now, as those groups have moved out of those areas and different members of different communities come in, they set up different churche (usually in store fronts or Catholic Churches that were sold or new wharehouse type structures or old movie theaters). Then, just like Christianity, instead of having one unified Church, there are dozens of separate churches teaching different beliefs about the same Jesus.



Amen to that…The Church has grown at such a pace that supply can’t keep up with demand! what a beautiful thing! Do you think that 12 Apostles were enough alone to convert the world?

God will provide His Priests. He always has, and always will. During the Dark Ages, about I believe that 1/3 or 2/3’s of the clergy died because they were serving the sick and dieing of the Black Plague. This is what led to the abuses of the clergy of The Church and what contributed to The Reformation.

Satan attacked mankind and The Church with the plague, he tried to bring the gates of hell against God’s Church, man responded with The Reformation. In the end (of course) Satan failed to destroy The Church and man failed to re-form her.



By the way, you never povided the source of your information that I asked of you.

Do you have an actual source or is this something you heard?

 

[2ndGen]

Because the church needs a place to meet.

 

[2ndGen]

Nope. I guess there’s no such thing, then.

Let’s not forget that darn Church that created The Holy Bible and that darn Catholic that invented the printing press.

 

[2ndGen]

There are plenty of “lone rangers” out there who believe that church - any church - is “the whore of babylon,” and that meeting together in a church building, or having a paid minister in authority over a group of Christians, is offensive to God.

They literally read the Bible alone - no other books - no concordances, no commentaries, and absolutely no philosophers, Church Fathers, etc., and also no magazines, story books, or anything else. They own literally one book: a Bible, usually a King James Bible. They don’t go to Church, they don’t pray for others, they don’t participate in service activities; they worship at home alone or with others who live in the same house with them, but they don’t go out, or associate with other Christians at all, in case of “contamination” with the world, or with denominational politics, etc.

As a devout Catholic, in theory, it’s a beautiful concept, but in reality, it’s impossible.

If Scripture didn’t require anything else, why would The Holy Spirit guide Philip into revealing the Scripture’s meanings to The Ethiopian Eunach “in” Scripture?

Then, would a Sola Scripturist have to say “The Bibe alone…+ Philip?”

 

[SyCarl]

As a devout Catholic, in theory, it’s a beautiful concept, but in reality, it’s impossible.

If Scripture didn’t require anything else, why would The Holy Spirit guide Philip into revealing the Scripture’s meanings to The Ethiopian Eunach “in” Scripture?

Then, would a Sola Scripturist have to say “The Bibe alone…+ Philip?”

At the time of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch the New Testament was not written yet. Everybody would agree, I think, that, during a time when new revelation is being inscripturated, the primary method of spreading the word is through oral teaching. The eunuch asked who Isaiah was writing about. He had the Old Testament but not the New. It would now be possible to answer this question by reading the Bible (Acts 8 itself for example). Of course someone can still be taught orally what the Bible records for us.