If someone told you that you would kill someone if the Pope told you to

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I agree with LilyM. The Pope cannot make or tell someone to do so, it is contrary to Biblical injunction "THOU SHALT NOT KILL’’. Saying otherwise would be anathema and contrary to God’s Will.

However, I would certainly defend the Pope or my Church or indeed the Sacrament with my body if need be if ever the need arose
 
No, damascus, I am not mocking you.

Yes, you dodged the question she put to you. But then, it was not an honest question was it? It was a goad, a deliberate attempt to set you up for failure.

Yes, it is natural for you to feel that something else need be done; afterall, she still got in her dig without any productive, to your perspective, counter.

But remember Christ, he said not to throw your pearls before swine. He also refused to answer baited questions, recognizing the fruitlessness of doing so.

The fact is, any answer to the question posed (had it been posed seriously), would have required an answer that she would have then ignored and proceeded to twist to her own agenda. You cannot justly say either “no” to the question any more than you can justly say “yes”. The answer, like so much truth, requires more discussion and nuanced response than some pat “yea/nea”.

For example, some have councilled you to say “no” on the premise that the Pope’s request that you kill someone was automatically a sinful one. The problem is that the Church also teaches that it is sometimes necessary, for good, to kill. Read the Catechism, sections around 2260’s (iirc). Thus, saying no would have been cause for her to say you are just another catholic who does not really believe what he professes.

On the contrary, had you attempted to eludicate a response along the lines of Orions’, she would have ignored the nuances, stripped out a particular phrase, and proceeded to rake you over the coals anyway.

I stand by my previous assessment; you did the right thing, and this is no mockery.

Next time you can simply tell her that you have no interest in discussing religion with her until she demonstrates a sincerity of inquiry that is presently lacking. When she is truly open to discussion, you will happily answer whatever questions she may have.
 
Damascus said:
How would you respond?
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I’ve had similar silly questions posed quite a few times. In different shapes and forms. I suggest the uneducated asking such questions to read Catholic doctrine .regarding the conscience

When one works on developing a well-formed conscience these type of silly questions, remain just that, silly questions. When one doesn’t work on developing a conscience…yet convinces themselves they have one by default…well… you get some odd beliefs.
 
Ask them “would you kill someone or burn an effigy if Jesus said to do it?”

Illustrates how flawed their stupid question was to begin with. :rolleyes:
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Not really.

Throwing Jesus into the equation changes the equation. Because Jesus DOES have authority over our consciences. If the Pope said to kill someone, I wouldn’t. Obedience to ecclesiastical superiors doesnt cover sin. We are still personally bound by our consciences. However, if God Himself were to tell me to kill someone…then by that very fact, I would know it was not a sin, because sin is what is against God’s will, and in this case it clearly would be in accord with His will.

So if Jesus told me to kill someone…I would. But not if the Pope told me to.

And lest you say too hastily, “Yeah…but niether would.”… just remember the orders God gave during the military conquest in the book of Joshua. What God giveth, he may taketh away. And if God gives you a direct and explicit order to kill someone, and irrefutable proof that it is truly Him and not the devil speaking…then you can and should kill the person. Because if God wants it…its not sin. God Himself, and God alone, has that authority over our consciences.
 
batteddy said:
Not really.

Throwing Jesus into the equation changes the equation. Because Jesus DOES have authority over our consciences. If the Pope said to kill someone, I wouldn’t. Obedience to ecclesiastical superiors doesnt cover sin. We are still personally bound by our consciences. However, if God Himself were to tell me to kill someone…then by that very fact, I would know it was not a sin, because sin is what is against God’s will, and in this case it clearly would be in accord with His will.

So if Jesus told me to kill someone…I would. But not if the Pope told me to.

And lest you say too hastily, “Yeah…but niether would.”… just remember the orders God gave during the military conquest in the book of Joshua. What God giveth, he may taketh away. And if God gives you a direct and explicit order to kill someone, and irrefutable proof that it is truly Him and not the devil speaking…then you can and should kill the person. Because if God wants it…its not sin. God Himself, and God alone, has that authority over our consciences.
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Good points!
 
Liberian said:
Fighting Fat (and Damascus),

Unfortunately, when you get right down to it, it is not so ridiculous a question–and the answer is not so cut and dried. Five hundred years ago Europe had to go to war to avoid being overrun by Islam (this was not the first time this had happened); in essence, the people in the Christian armies went to war and killed people “because the Pope told them to.” My response is that yes, I would kill somebody if the Pope told me to–and had sufficient reason to tell me to do so, which he would indeed have–because the alternative would be to watch my nation conquered, my family slaughtered, and everything I knew and loved in this world destroyed. One could quibble about whether the reason for going to war and killing people was out of self-defense or whether it was “because the Pope told me to,” but the fact remains that I would do it.
  • Liberian
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Amen! If it weren’t for the Pope “telling people to kill people” (killing someone is NOT always murder) Europe would be an Arabic speaking continent and we would have our beautiful cathedrals turned into mosques (ala Hagia Sophia in Greece cough “Turkey”).
 
Come on, we are human, we are created with a brain to think and act what is right!!! Even if i would to be a Catholic, and if the Pope wanted me to kill for religion purpose i will not do that, because it is obviously a wrong thing to do. We obey our commandments spiritually not foolishly
 
batteddy said:
Not really.

Throwing Jesus into the equation changes the equation. Because Jesus DOES have authority over our consciences. If the Pope said to kill someone, I wouldn’t. Obedience to ecclesiastical superiors doesnt cover sin. We are still personally bound by our consciences. However, if God Himself were to tell me to kill someone…then by that very fact, I would know it was not a sin, because sin is what is against God’s will, and in this case it clearly would be in accord with His will.

So if Jesus told me to kill someone…I would. But not if the Pope told me to.

And lest you say too hastily, “Yeah…but niether would.”… just remember the orders God gave during the military conquest in the book of Joshua. What God giveth, he may taketh away. And if God gives you a direct and explicit order to kill someone, and irrefutable proof that it is truly Him and not the devil speaking…then you can and should kill the person. Because if God wants it…its not sin. God Himself, and God alone, has that authority over our consciences.
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I may question if the one telling me this is Jesus, or someone claiming to be Jesus. For the evil one can take any form he pleases. There are many who will claim to be Christ before the second coming.
 
Happy Gal,

If I may ask, how much do you know about Hagia Sophia? the Battle of Lepanto? the Muslim conquest of Spain?

We need to obey our commandments physically as well as spiritually. I regret to say so but it is a very rough world out there. At present we sleep soundly at night because there are a lot of people who are willing to do a lot of damage if somebody attacks us.
  • Liberian
 
Liberian said:
Happy Gal,

If I may ask, how much do you know about Hagia Sophia? the Battle of Lepanto? the Muslim conquest of Spain?

We need to obey our commandments physically as well as spiritually. I regret to say so but it is a very rough world out there. At present we sleep soundly at night because there are a lot of people who are willing to do a lot of damage if somebody attacks us.
  • Liberian
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Hi Liberian

I understand that we aim living in a perfect world, but the commandment lay down does not mean nothing, we ought to think about why God wanted us to obey all this commandment ,even if we are under attack, does he say that we have to kill to defence ourselve or we to face the same persecuation just like Jesus. God did not lay down a list of commandment for us to twist his teaching by giving a reason telling him, God i kill because i need to defence myself!! Else God won’t even list thou shall not kill as one of the commandment that all Christian should follow.

We have engaged in so many tragic wars during the past century, so does that mean that God enjoy seeing his creation killing one another just because they some dispute where human unable to compromise one another??
 
HAPPY:
I understand that we aim living in a perfect world, but the commandment lay down does not mean nothing, we ought to think about why God wanted us to obey all this commandment ,even if we are under attack, does he say that we have to kill to defence ourselve or we to face the same persecuation just like Jesus. God did not lay down a list of commandment for us to twist his teaching by giving a reason telling him, God i kill because i need to defence myself!! Else God won’t even list thou shall not kill as one of the commandment that all Christian should follow.

We have engaged in so many tragic wars during the past century, so does that mean that God enjoy seeing his creation killing one another just because they some dispute where human unable to compromise one another??
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have not read thread. What did Jesus say to the soldiers about this - nothing.
The roman soldier who asked Him to heal one of his household was not berated by Christ for being a soldier but rather he was praised for his great Faith - that Christ said he had not seen such Faith before, the soldier goes on to attribute it to his military training and still no criticism from Christ.
Another passage tells soldiers to remain in their station in life and to be honourable. If you can find any criticism of the military life in general in Scripture it’ud be interesting, there were no shortage of roman soldiers around and about in occupied Isreal at that time and there were also numerous ‘wars - and rumours of wars’…
 
…so does that mean that God enjoy seeing his creation killing one another just because they some dispute where human unable to compromise one another??
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A bit of an extreme leap there, no?

Because we war,* even if at the command* of God (see the OT for plenty of examples of this), in no way should be so misconstrued into believeing the God “enjoys” watching the slaughter like we do watching Swartzeneggar films.

God also allows death; painful, violent, and horrific; yet scripture is clear that he does not delight in our deaths.

Do not mischaracterize God simply because you cannot recognize certain valid teachings being defended here. I believe the Catechism is quite erudite regarding the subject; killing is bad, and never an optimal choice, but it is nevertheless a grim necessity and even a “duty” in particular circumstances.

As such, we cannot offer a blanket yes or no to the “question” posed without violating the known historic will of God regarding the matter. It is only after appropriate discernment that such an answer can be given, a discernemnt which is dependant upon the specific circumstances surrounding the event.

BTW, when did Jesus ever promote “compromise”? I’d be very interested in contextually valid references, if you have them. Even the way of “loving” Non-Violence is not a path of Compromise, but of specific and determined resistance.

Anyway, even if one disagrees with the tenor of certain arguments, it does not really need to follow with a gross mischaracterization of God as a response.
 
Hi,

I once asked a friend of his understanding of the verse in Deuteronomy 14-8 'The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses. ’

His response was that the Pope has no objection on the issue of eating pork despite the fact the Bible clearly states it is prohibited to do so. The question is if Pope’s word stronger and more credible than God’s?

Regards,

Pinatubo:confused:
 
Just smile and say “I think that may be the strangest comment I’ve ever heard in my life!”
 
Pinatubo said:
Hi,

I once asked a friend of his understanding of the verse in Deuteronomy 14-8 'The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses. ’

His response was that the Pope has no objection on the issue of eating pork despite the fact the Bible clearly states it is prohibited to do so. The question is if Pope’s word stronger and more credible than God’s?

Regards,

Pinatubo:confused:
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Welcome to CAF, Pinatubo. If you look at the top left of the post, you can see the date of the last post on the thread. This thread has been inactive for about a year and a half. You can still post on it, but be aware that none of the people that were here then may respond to you.

Jesus gave the Apostles the Power to Bind and Loose. Therefore, it is possible to alter the rules and regulations as needed. God also revealed to Peter and Paul that all foods are clean. Christians are not bound by the Jewish dietary regulations.
 
Okay, so at my church’s Easter vigil, our priest called on a friend of his and said, ‘Do you love your son?" Of course, the father said yes. He then asked, “Do you love God” and the guy again said yes. So then the priest spoke about Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son and asked the father, "Would you kill your son if God asked you to?’" and the father said it would be difficult but he would.

Now, this is such a contradiction. Why would God ask us to kill our child when our 10 commandments forbid it? I don’t understand why the priest would ask this as God works in different ways than in the earlier days of Abraham, Moses, etc.

So, why did God ask Abraham to kill his son when killing is forbidden? And, how could we possibly kill our child if God asked us to because it’s against one of the commandments. I’m really having trouble with this hypothetical question.

I’m wondering about others’ opinions on this.
 
In all honesty, I would as long as I saw the reasoning as just.

Gotta be honest.
 
Damascus said:
How would you respond?

Today someone at a birthday party mocked me and said I’d kill someone or burn an effigy if the Pope said to do it.

I just laughed and said that the Pope is not that kinda guy.

She said her point was proven. I did not defend my position and did not say I would not do it.

Rather than add fuel to the fire, I just added that if one really thinks this way about the Catholic Faith and Catholics in general, then there is no response that will satify them.

I wish I had said something more substantial since afterwards someone else said that she also thought the same way and now she is convinced!

How does one respond to something like this?
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SIMPLE: YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR FREAKING MIND, AND I WON’T EVEN JUSTIFY THE STATEMENT WITH AN ANSWER!! Then I would have made the sign of the Cross, and looked the person straight in the eyes and said: GET AWAY FROM ME SATAN!!!

Now, on the other hand…being who I really am…I would not be the least bit inclined to respond that way… I’m not one to create scene’s and validate the weird thoughts of strange people… I would actually have told the “hostess” of the party “Goodbye” and left. I would not return to that house, nor would I associate with someone of that low caliber. Face it…it was a lowbrow and crass question, especially for her to ask a guest in her own home.
 
This thread is over 2 years old. I wonder if the OP ever went to another party with the lady and what happened?😃
 
Oh! Interesting thread! I guess I’d say that murder is a mortal sin, so you can’t do it. Besides, that trumps what a person says (even if it is the Pope) since we’ve had a few corrupt Popes in the past.

So, by following the RULES OF THE CHURCH you would not do it and a Pope would (should) not ask it anyway.

(Thought I’d put my 2 cents in - better late than never… hahahaha)
 
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