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Dorothy
Guest
That is Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen’s famous quote.
If someone told you that you would kill someone if the Pope told you to
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Damascus
Guest
Great idea, and I go to a bunch of them locally. But I have some unfortunate links to this group, ( due to a recent marriage ) so I must be brave and carry the cross!
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Dorothy
Guest
Perhaps the Lord has allowed you to be there for a reason. You can be a witness by your demeanor and your calm replies.Great idea, and I go to a bunch of them locally. But I have some unfortunate links to this group, ( due to a recent marriage ) so I must be brave and carry the cross!
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Damascus
Guest
It suddenly hit me that maybe I should have asked her if she thought that I was that kind of person then why would she want me to come to her home, but then I shrugged that off and
Thought of how I can show her how she has been filled with bad information by reminding her that if that were the case, we get attacked so often and yet remain a light to the world by our witness and charity so our actions speak louder than words in how we live our faith out and how we have remained constantly aware of our unworthy state in life and are sinners , but sinners that have the best medicine …
The Love and Peace of Jesus in us prevents us from going against his will for us! He only asks us to follow him.
As a Catholic I may fail but I give myself to the Church he established for all.
Is that lame?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
400 years ago, this was a serious issue.
The Pope’s authority is defined & limited by its purpose, which is the salvation of mankind. It is not, & cannot be, absolute. If it were, it would be amoral at best, & a tyranny at worst. Which is why the moral teaching of Christ is essential to the Church. That teaching goes beyond, and makes even more stringent, the OT prohibitions against murder: not only may we not murder - we may not even hate. We are to love our enemies, and to pray for them. Murder is not a loving act.Therefore, the Pope’s authority cannot be used to command murder without being undermined. He has not one shred of authority to command murder, because that would be to use his authority in order to teach or require what Jesus Christ utterly forbids. The Pope is not entitled to override the authority of Christ - that authority is the foundation of his own. It makes no sense to disobey the teaching of Christ in order to obey Him; so such a command from any man, Pope or not, would be meaningless. It would be a kind of blasphemy to abuse authority in that way. When the Pope becomes superior to God, he may be obeyed instead of God - but not until then ##
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Dorothy
Guest
No, that is not one bit lame. God bless!
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Elzee
Guest
Or as John Martignoni says on one of his cds: * “There’s an answer to every reasonable question about Catholicism.” *
Now I know what he meant when he said he’s been asked things that just make him wonder how those words could have come out of a supposedly sane person’s mouth.
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Liberian
Guest
Fighting Fat (and Damascus),
Unfortunately, when you get right down to it, it is not so ridiculous a question–and the answer is not so cut and dried. Five hundred years ago Europe had to go to war to avoid being overrun by Islam (this was not the first time this had happened); in essence, the people in the Christian armies went to war and killed people “because the Pope told them to.” My response is that yes, I would kill somebody if the Pope told me to–and had sufficient reason to tell me to do so, which he would indeed have–because the alternative would be to watch my nation conquered, my family slaughtered, and everything I knew and loved in this world destroyed. One could quibble about whether the reason for going to war and killing people was out of self-defense or whether it was “because the Pope told me to,” but the fact remains that I would do it.
Unfortunately, when you get right down to it, it is not so ridiculous a question–and the answer is not so cut and dried. Five hundred years ago Europe had to go to war to avoid being overrun by Islam (this was not the first time this had happened); in essence, the people in the Christian armies went to war and killed people “because the Pope told them to.” My response is that yes, I would kill somebody if the Pope told me to–and had sufficient reason to tell me to do so, which he would indeed have–because the alternative would be to watch my nation conquered, my family slaughtered, and everything I knew and loved in this world destroyed. One could quibble about whether the reason for going to war and killing people was out of self-defense or whether it was “because the Pope told me to,” but the fact remains that I would do it.
- Liberian
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JezuUfamTobie
Guest
All that was proved is that she doesn’t know how to have a logical debate.
I don’t think you did anything wrong. I think you skillfully avoided a very silly argument. You can’t change someone’s mind if she’s more interested in attempting to make you look foolish than in pursuing truth. She phrased this nonsense as a question, but it was really an insult, not a request for information.
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Lrning
Guest
Next time I’d say, “Why on earth would you say a thing like that?”
She might sputter out some “reasons” why, but I would refuse to answer her point for point. I would say something to this effect, “It’s apparent to me that you have some major misconceptions about the Catholic faith. This isn’t the time or place, but I’ll give you some information later in the week related to your comments. This bean dip is simply wonderful, can I have the recipe?”
That gives you time to pull together some information relating to whatever arguments she used about the Church, and doesn’t require you to debate off the top of your head. Just make sure you actually follow-up and get some information to her.
You mentioned that you’re going to be going to another party soon with these people. Maybe do some research ahead of time and have some information in your purse. Then when the anti-C insults start, you can say “Funny you should say that, I realized at your last party that you have some major misconceptions about the Catholic faith, so I brought some information for you. Here it is. It’s too heavy a topic for me to discuss during the party, but if you have any questions after reading this, please call me.”
Good luck.
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mlchance
Guest
Laughter. Lots and lots of laughter. Then end with a sneer. As William Paley once observed, no one can refute a sneer.
– Mark L. Chance.
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trogiah
Guest
You could answer simply and clearly without feeling the least like you were being disloyal to the Church,
“I would not kill anyone for any reason except legitimate self-defense. regardless of what a pope may say in a moment of error.”
As one person stated above, the belief that the Pope would never make a mistake is not part of our Catholic faith. The first Pope’s errors are clearly shown from the moment he was declared to be the Rock.
True Catholics are servants of God, not the Pope or any other human.
Jim
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batteddy
Guest
Yeah, holy obedience doesn’t cover sin.
The sign of a good person is that they will obey even the most ridiculous or extreme things…but will not obey when it is against their well-formed conscience.
So I wouldn’t kill anyone if the Pope said to, but I would burn an effigy.
The sign of a good person is that they will obey even the most ridiculous or extreme things…but will not obey when it is against their well-formed conscience.
So I wouldn’t kill anyone if the Pope said to, but I would burn an effigy.
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rr1213
Guest
You all are making this harder than it needs to be. Your answer should just have been a simple “no”.
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RevDrNorth
Guest
Good answer from someone who said just say “no”. The Pope is not always infallible and Roman Catholics do not believe his is always infallible.
This stuff smacks of the 60’s bigotry that resulted in Kennedy being questioned about his ability to lead the states.
Frankly, as you note the Pope certainly should not be ordereing anyone to be murdered. There have been bad Popes but they are humans.
You could ask her if Jesus told her to go ahead and brutally kill her children would she do it? She could take the same tack you did which is to say “He would never do it” and which point you could press forward and ask what if he did. Or she might say “well I would assume he knew best”. The point is that is a ridiculous question just as the one she asked you. If she is not Catholic her orginal question is more than ridiculous it is also quite bigoted.
North
This stuff smacks of the 60’s bigotry that resulted in Kennedy being questioned about his ability to lead the states.
Frankly, as you note the Pope certainly should not be ordereing anyone to be murdered. There have been bad Popes but they are humans.
You could ask her if Jesus told her to go ahead and brutally kill her children would she do it? She could take the same tack you did which is to say “He would never do it” and which point you could press forward and ask what if he did. Or she might say “well I would assume he knew best”. The point is that is a ridiculous question just as the one she asked you. If she is not Catholic her orginal question is more than ridiculous it is also quite bigoted.
North
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Church_Militant
Guest
I’d laugh in their faces and prove them to be asserting something without the least evidence. Rational people will see that for what it is. (As a buddy of mine calls it) “Equine fertilizer”.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,
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Damascus
Guest
Well, I think you got her wrong. She is an atheist and married to a catholic-
I used the lower case on purpose shame on me. He is catholic in name only and has contempt for the Church. She made it worse when they got married.
She is actually a “better prospect” for conversion than he is - he is worse than she is!
Anyway, she is just a product of her enviornment. Unloved. I was treading carefully since I am aware of that.
But thanks for the cold hearted advice, maybe she will simply give up on life next since she already gave up on God. I could be the one to throw her over the edge ya know.
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Damascus
Guest
Thank you rr1213,
Since she does not believe in God, I’m sure that would lead her to more questions. No. That sounds like an authourity figure talking, we are equals.
she can have dessert before dinner type of thing. You know what I mean?
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wjp984
Guest
I don’t think even God could make 2+2=5. Kind of like saying could God make a rock so heavy that he could not live it. It is not logically possible.
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BJRumph
Guest
Personally, I believe your response was the correct one. Jesus called many a trap-setter out onto the carpet for their attempt. Its not about “face”, its about Truth; and your accuser was not interested in it. You cannot sacrifice Truth on the alter of pride, even the pride of your “enemy”. Christ was not afraid of telling anyone the truth, neither did he say “Spread my Word to everyone, unless you think they might be insulted…”
Well done.
Well done.
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