If someone told you that you would kill someone if the Pope told you to

  • Thread starter Thread starter Damascus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Personally, I believe your response was the correct one. Jesus called many a trap-setter out onto the carpet for their attempt. Its not about “face”, its about Truth; and your accuser was not interested in it. You cannot sacrifice Truth on the alter of pride, even the pride of your “enemy”. Christ was not afraid of telling anyone the truth, neither did he say “Spread my Word to everyone, unless you think they might be insulted…”

Well done. 👍
But I did not insult her! I did not really answer!
So are you being serious when you say I did the right thing -
or are you mocking me?
:confused:
 
I don’t think even God could make 2+2=5. Kind of like saying could God make a rock so heavy that he could not live it. It is not logically possible.
read the second part of Ceasars quote again and again - then you may get it.
 
I think you did the right thing.
Proverbs 26:4 “Answer not the fool according to his foll, lest you too become like him.”
Also, Proverb 29:11, and 22
“The fool gives vent to his anger; but by biding his time, the wise man calms it.”
“An ill-tempered man stirs up disputes, and a hotheaded man is the cause of many sins.”
 
I think I probably would have had trouble to keep from laughing!!

Seriously, when people ask outrageous questions, (or say other off the wall things), I tend to fall back on the old Ann Landers answer: Just ask her to repeat it, & then say, “I thought that’s what you said, but I couldn’t believe that anyone would be so incredibly rude [or, silly; whatever fits].”
 
I think I probably would have had trouble to keep from laughing!!

Seriously, when people ask outrageous questions, (or say other off the wall things), I tend to fall back on the old Ann Landers answer: Just ask her to repeat it, & then say, “I thought that’s what you said, but I couldn’t believe that anyone would be so incredibly rude [or, silly; whatever fits].”
Zooey—

YOU ARE RIGHT! she said " I’ll forgive you for asking that if you forgive me for not answering"!!!

YOU ARE COOL!😃
 
How would you respond?
Firstly, I would respond by stating that of the two of us, I am more qualified to say what I would do in such a situation, than anyone else. To presume to tell me what I would do is nothing more than a display of ignorance.

Perhaps he meant to presume to tell a Catholic what it is Catholic teaching professes?

In that case, I would share with him a quote from St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Catholic Church. When asked a similar hypothetical question regarding a pope who gives a morally evil command, St. Robert taught:

“**It is licit to resist a [morally evil command of a] Pontiff…by not doing what he orders.” **(St.Robert Bellarmine, *De Romano Pontifice, *ii.29).

Then I would ask the antagonist to provide some verifiable Catholic resource which states that he, a non-Catholic, has a greater understanding of Catholic teaching that St. Robert, a Doctor of Catholicism.
 
In short, I’d have answered, “I’d resist the request and condemn it unless the circumstances and nature of the request were independently and freely determined by me to be moral and just. You need to give me an idea on what such a hypothetical circurmstance might be moral and just as I can’t imagine it right now.”

You shouldn’t let this obvious Catholic antagonist put you on the defensive by proposing an extreme hypothetical case w/ out greater context.

The Catechism is quite clear on this My comments are in bold:

ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

1776 “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

I. The Judgment of Conscience

1777 Moral conscience, present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil. It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking. **If the Pope asked me to kill Hitler, I might find it moral because it is necessary to prevent the death of others (the morality is found in the intended effect which is to save others). But if it was to kill my wife, my conscience would tell me it was evil and I’d resist the Pope’s order. **

1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.50

(1779 and 1780 were deleted for space reasons and I believe not relevant to the thread. There was no intention to be selective in the text. If I was so, please clarify.)

1781 Conscience enables one to assume responsibility for the acts performed. If man commits evil, the just judgment of conscience can remain within him as the witness to the universal truth of the good, at the same time as the evil of his particular choice. The verdict of the judgment of conscience remains a pledge of hope and mercy. In attesting to the fault committed, it calls to mind the forgiveness that must be asked, the good that must still be practiced, and the virtue that must be constantly cultivated with the grace of God: While the Pope may have to face consequences for using his position to induce me to do evil, the consequences are still mine and I’ll have to face God for what I did at the Pope’s direction

We shall . . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53 In short, even the Pope can’t force me to violate my conscience. Granted, if the Pope is speaking ex cathedra and rather as just Benny, my faith requires me to take special note of the Pope’s words. However, the order to kill someone is outside the normal perogative of even the Pope. Such a request should be taken with great skepticism even if it are request to murder Hitler.
 
We only have to obey the pope in matters he has God-given authority. He has no authority to tell us to sin.
 
Firstly, I would respond by stating that of the two of us, I am more qualified to say what I would do in such a situation, than anyone else. To presume to tell me what I would do is nothing more than a display of ignorance.

Perhaps he meant to presume to tell a Catholic what it is Catholic teaching professes?

In that case, I would share with him a quote from St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Catholic Church. When asked a similar hypothetical question regarding a pope who gives a morally evil command, St. Robert taught:

“**It is licit to resist a [morally evil command of a] Pontiff…by not doing what he orders.” **(St.Robert Bellarmine, *De Romano Pontifice, *ii.29).

Then I would ask the antagonist to provide some verifiable Catholic resource which states that he, a non-Catholic, has a greater understanding of Catholic teaching that St. Robert, a Doctor of Catholicism.
Great answer- but I need to reherse that one a bit- I will go over that one and hope she does not say THERE ARE NO SAINTS!
 
In short, I’d have answered, “I’d resist the request and condemn it unless the circumstances and nature of the request were independently and freely determined by me to be moral and just. You need to give me an idea on what such a hypothetical circurmstance might be moral and just as I can’t imagine it right now.”

You shouldn’t let this obvious Catholic antagonist put you on the defensive by proposing an extreme hypothetical case w/ out greater context.

The Catechism is quite clear on this My comments are in bold:

ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

1776 “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

I. The Judgment of Conscience

1777 Moral conscience, present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil. It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking. **If the Pope asked me to kill Hitler, I might find it moral because it is necessary to prevent the death of others (the morality is found in the intended effect which is to save others). But if it was to kill my wife, my conscience would tell me it was evil and I’d resist the Pope’s order. **

1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.50

(1779 and 1780 were deleted for space reasons and I believe not relevant to the thread. There was no intention to be selective in the text. If I was so, please clarify.)

1781 Conscience enables one to assume responsibility for the acts performed. If man commits evil, the just judgment of conscience can remain within him as the witness to the universal truth of the good, at the same time as the evil of his particular choice. The verdict of the judgment of conscience remains a pledge of hope and mercy. In attesting to the fault committed, it calls to mind the forgiveness that must be asked, the good that must still be practiced, and the virtue that must be constantly cultivated with the grace of God: While the Pope may have to face consequences for using his position to induce me to do evil, the consequences are still mine and I’ll have to face God for what I did at the Pope’s direction

We shall . . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53 In short, even the Pope can’t force me to violate my conscience. Granted, if the Pope is speaking ex cathedra and rather as just Benny, my faith requires me to take special note of the Pope’s words. However, the order to kill someone is outside the normal perogative of even the Pope. Such a request should be taken with great skepticism even if it are request to murder Hitler.
WOW. That is the best detail I have ever seen - thank you 🙂

Problem is that is not short for me anyway, and I would need notes or print this and give it to her— then she would laugh at me and say “Is this what THEY told you to say”?

But- it is great- I will try to memorize it- you are awesome.
Thanks!🙂
 
Damascus, I would just stay away from this lady at the next party. If she has some serious enquiries into Church teachings, I would set up a time where the two of you could meet and discusss these matters. Just don’t put youself in a situation where she will (rudely) back you into a corner in public. That is not fair of her.
 
Great answer- but I need to reherse that one a bit- I will go over that one and hope she does not say THERE ARE NO SAINTS!
You could revise it a bit and say, “One of our greatest teachers once said, …” instead of getting into the Saint question.
 
Damascus, I would just stay away from this lady at the next party. If she has some serious enquiries into Church teachings, I would set up a time where the two of you could meet and discusss these matters. Just don’t put youself in a situation where she will (rudely) back you into a corner in public. That is not fair of her.
I was hoping to avoid this whole thing. Its one thing to fight for my faith, but she is so …unknowledgeable that it does not even feel like a fair fight.

I would hate to make her feel small. Then she will never see the Church as a light to the world…

I agree, you have a lot of wisdom that is REAL in this statement…

Its not fair - I agree, but then again- when is anything “fair”?

I kinda want her to see that she is wrong on her own— and give her the “credit” for the light bulb going off in her head…

You are right- I’ve got to do it in person before the next public humilliation…

Then she may not do it again, right?
 
Well, I think you got her wrong.
Anyway, she is just a product of her enviornment. Unloved. I was treading carefully since I am aware of that.
But thanks for the cold hearted advice, maybe she will simply give up on life next since she already gave up on God. I could be the one to throw her over the edge ya know.
You are quite welcome. If she is as bad off as you say (close to giving up on life/suicidal) so that anything you say may push her over the edge, have you guided her towards any mental health resources? You are doing the right thing being gentle with her. Watch for signs of a plan and take any threat seriously.

North
 
It suddenly hit me that maybe I should have asked her if she thought that I was that kind of person then why would she want me to come to her home, but then I shrugged that off and

Thought of how I can show her how she has been filled with bad information by reminding her that if that were the case, we get attacked so often and yet remain a light to the world by our witness and charity so our actions speak louder than words in how we live our faith out and how we have remained constantly aware of our unworthy state in life and are sinners , but sinners that have the best medicine …
The Love and Peace of Jesus in us prevents us from going against his will for us! He only asks us to follow him.
As a Catholic I may fail but I give myself to the Church he established for all.

Is that lame?
Love it, just don’t try to say it all in one breath!😃
 
I think I probably would have had trouble to keep from laughing!!

Seriously, when people ask outrageous questions, (or say other off the wall things), I tend to fall back on the old Ann Landers answer: Just ask her to repeat it, & then say, “I thought that’s what you said, but I couldn’t believe that anyone would be so incredibly rude [or, silly; whatever fits].”
I really like this one!
 
You are quite welcome. If she is as bad off as you say (close to giving up on life/suicidal) so that anything you say may push her over the edge, have you guided her towards any mental health resources? You are doing the right thing being gentle with her. Watch for signs of a plan and take any threat seriously.

North
:confused:
 
How would you respond?

Today someone at a birthday party mocked me and said I’d kill someone or burn an effigy if the Pope said to do it.

I just laughed and said that the Pope is not that kinda guy.

She said her point was proven. I did not defend my position and did not say I would not do it.

Rather than add fuel to the fire, I just added that if one really thinks this way about the Catholic Faith and Catholics in general, then there is no response that will satify them.

I wish I had said something more substantial since afterwards someone else said that she also thought the same way and now she is convinced!

How does one respond to something like this?
Simple, IMO…

Ask them “would you kill someone or burn an effigy if Jesus said to do it?”

Illustrates how flawed their stupid question was to begin with. :rolleyes:
 
My response would simply be to say I would never kill any person JUST because another person asked me to - they’d have to have a darn good and compelling reason behind the request at the least.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top