If something does not happen in this universe, is it because God refused it?

[dominique1313]

Hi,

Is the statement "If something does not happen, then God refused it" correct?

Catechism of Catholic Church firmly affirms that God is the absolute sovereign of our universe and that this universe is fully subject to him.

I think the statement in question which I mentioned above is absolutely correct, but this is not to say that God is responsible for our own sinfulness. We freely choose either to sin or not sin. The way I understand is this:

God is love itself, and in order for us to truly love God, we have to have our own free will (since there is no such thing as forced love). Hence it follows that by his goodness, God values our free will and thus he never chooses to override our free will, despite the fact that he certainly has a power to do so.
So for instance, God could have erase every evil thought from the mind of Adolf Hitler in order to prevent the disastrous World War II. But he didn’t do it. God refused to take such action because he who loved Hitler as one of his creations, still valued Hitler’s free will and he wanted Hitler to be able to make choices of his own. Thus World War II was invoked, but nonetheless, God refused to make Hitler to win the war.
So I think sometimes God does not refuse to let something happen what we take as “bad”, for the sake of our own free will. Hence the fact that God sometimes refuses what we take as “good” to happen does not mean that God is evil (since he chose to refuse out of his goodness represented as respecting human free will). Hence God is absolute sovereign, and at the same time we have our own free will and we are accountable for our own action, and what’s more, the idea that God is ultimately allowing(permitting) bad things to happen does not make him evil.

So based on this logic, I think I can safely conclude that not only that “if God refuses, then it does not happen” is true, but what is also true is “if something does not happen in this universe, then God refused to make it happen as the supreme authority”.

Am I right?

Thanks…

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Hi,

Is the statement "If something does not happen, then God refused it" correct?

Catechism of Catholic Church firmly affirms that God is the absolute sovereign of our universe and that this universe is fully subject to him.

I think the statement in question which I mentioned above is absolutely correct, but this is not to say that God is responsible for our own sinfulness. We freely choose either to sin or not sin. The way I understand is this:

God is love itself, and in order for us to truly love God, we have to have our own free will (since there is no such thing as forced love). Hence it follows that by his goodness, God values our free will and thus he never chooses to override our free will, despite the fact that he certainly has a power to do so.
So for instance, God could have erase every evil thought from the mind of Adolf Hitler in order to prevent the disastrous World War II. But he didn’t do it. God refused to take such action because he who loved Hitler as one of his creations, still valued Hitler’s free will and he wanted Hitler to be able to make choices of his own. Thus World War II was invoked, but nonetheless, God refused to make Hitler to win the war.
So I think sometimes God does not refuse to let something happen what we take as “bad”, for the sake of our own free will. Hence the fact that God sometimes refuses what we take as “good” to happen does not mean that God is evil (since he chose to refuse out of his goodness represented as respecting human free will). Hence God is absolute sovereign, and at the same time we have our own free will and we are accountable for our own action, and what’s more, the idea that God is ultimately allowing(permitting) bad things to happen does not make him evil.

So based on this logic, I think I can safely conclude that not only that “if God refuses, then it does not happen” is true, but what is also true is “if something does not happen in this universe, then God refused to make it happen as the supreme authority”.

Am I right?

Thanks…

Yes, I think that is true. Although, God can override our decisions and has done so from time to time. And he has also overridden the natural flow of nature in the case of miracles. But it is true to say the God is absoltely soverign over his creation and if something does not happen, and if it does not happen, it is because he willed that it not happen.

Linus2nd

 

[dshix]

Hi,

Is the statement "If something does not happen, then God refused it" correct?

Catechism of Catholic Church firmly affirms that God is the absolute sovereign of our universe and that this universe is fully subject to him.

I think the statement in question which I mentioned above is absolutely correct, but this is not to say that God is responsible for our own sinfulness. We freely choose either to sin or not sin. The way I understand is this:

God is love itself, and in order for us to truly love God, we have to have our own free will (since there is no such thing as forced love). Hence it follows that by his goodness, God values our free will and thus he never chooses to override our free will, despite the fact that he certainly has a power to do so.
So for instance, God could have erase every evil thought from the mind of Adolf Hitler in order to prevent the disastrous World War II. But he didn’t do it. God refused to take such action because he who loved Hitler as one of his creations, still valued Hitler’s free will and he wanted Hitler to be able to make choices of his own. Thus World War II was invoked, but nonetheless, God refused to make Hitler to win the war.
So I think sometimes God does not refuse to let something happen what we take as “bad”, for the sake of our own free will. Hence the fact that God sometimes refuses what we take as “good” to happen does not mean that God is evil (since he chose to refuse out of his goodness represented as respecting human free will). Hence God is absolute sovereign, and at the same time we have our own free will and we are accountable for our own action, and what’s more, the idea that God is ultimately allowing(permitting) bad things to happen does not make him evil.

So based on this logic, I think I can safely conclude that not only that “if God refuses, then it does not happen” is true, but what is also true is “if something does not happen in this universe, then God refused to make it happen as the supreme authority”.

Am I right?

Thanks…

Hi! Interesting question. Oddly similar, too, to another thread I answered not too long ago.

I absolutely agree with the statement which you proved, that is, “if God refuses, then it does not happen”. That is absolutely true.

However, logically speaking, that does not make the converse true. The statement, “if something does not happen, then God refused it” is the logical converse of the first statement, and is, therefore, not necessarily logically true. And in this case, I think we can say safely that it is not true.

There are many things that do not happen, but not because God refused them. For example: I can choose to pick up the pencil sitting on my desk right now and throw it at the wall. God would not stop me from doing that. But I can choose not to do it. Thus: the pencil did not get thrown at the wall, and God did not “refuse” for the pencil to be thrown against the wall.

Make sense?

 

[dominique1313]

Hi! Interesting question. Oddly similar, too, to another thread I answered not too long ago.

I absolutely agree with the statement which you proved, that is, “if God refuses, then it does not happen”. That is absolutely true.

However, logically speaking, that does not make the converse true. The statement, “if something does not happen, then God refused it” is the logical converse of the first statement, and is, therefore, not necessarily logically true. And in this case, I think we can say safely that it is not true.

There are many things that do not happen, but not because God refused them. For example: I can choose to pick up the pencil sitting on my desk right now and throw it at the wall. God would not stop me from doing that. But I can choose not to do it. Thus: the pencil did not get thrown at the wall, and God did not “refuse” for the pencil to be thrown at wall.

Make sense?

Hello

I just found this article from Catholic Encyclopedia:

*"Thus things happen contingently as well as of necessity (I, Q. xxii, a. 4), for God has given to different things different ways of acting, and His concurrence is given accordingly (I, Q. xxii, a. 4). Yet all things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose. Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, and without violence: universal, because all things are subject to it (I, Q. xxii, a. 2; ciii, a. 5); **immediate, in that though God acts through secondary causes, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (*I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); "

… I think that God, by his supreme authority, sometimes does not refuse things from happening because he does not want to artificially alter our actions and decisions that we make based upon our free will. So in your analogy, God certainly had a power to prevent me from throwing pencil against wall, even though I really want to throw a pencil against a wall. However, I end up throwing a pencil at wall according to my free will because God refused to take my free will away and act against it

So in a sense, I ended up throwing my pencil against the well because God did not refuse it…what do you think of my analogy?

 

[dshix]

Hello

I just found this article from Catholic Encyclopedia:

*"Thus things happen contingently as well as of necessity (I, Q. xxii, a. 4), for God has given to different things different ways of acting, and His concurrence is given accordingly (I, Q. xxii, a. 4). Yet all things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose. Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, and without violence: universal, because all things are subject to it (I, Q. xxii, a. 2; ciii, a. 5); **immediate, in that though God acts through secondary causes, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (***I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); "

… I think that God, by his supreme authority, sometimes does not refuse things from happening because he does not want to artificially alter our actions and decisions that we make based upon our free will. So in your analogy, God certainly had a power to prevent me from throwing pencil against wall, even though I really want to throw a pencil against a wall. However, I end up throwing a pencil at wall according to my free will because God refused to take my free will away and act against it

So in a sense, I ended up throwing my pencil against the well because God did not refuse it…what do you think of my analogy?

You are correct in your observation that God does not restrict our free will. However, I think we should revise the word “refuse” in this statement.

The word “refuse” has a direct connotation of “not doing something requested”. From the dictionary:

ref·use
rəˈfyo͞oz/
verb
indicate or show that one is not willing to do something.
“I refused to answer”
indicate that one is not willing to accept or grant (something offered or requested).
“she refused a cigarette”
synonyms: decline, turn down, say no to; More
informal
(of a thing) fail to perform a required action.
“the car refused to start”

In this case, however, we’re simply talking about God “not restricting the use of free will”. Therefore, the statement should simply be: “I ended up throwing my pencil against the well because God did not prohibit it.” That is a true statement.

 

[Richca]

Hi,

Is the statement "If something does not happen, then God refused it" correct?

Catechism of Catholic Church firmly affirms that God is the absolute sovereign of our universe and that this universe is fully subject to him.

I think the statement in question which I mentioned above is absolutely correct, but this is not to say that God is responsible for our own sinfulness. We freely choose either to sin or not sin. The way I understand is this:

God is love itself, and in order for us to truly love God, we have to have our own free will (since there is no such thing as forced love). Hence it follows that by his goodness, God values our free will and thus he never chooses to override our free will, despite the fact that he certainly has a power to do so.
So for instance, God could have erase every evil thought from the mind of Adolf Hitler in order to prevent the disastrous World War II. But he didn’t do it. God refused to take such action because he who loved Hitler as one of his creations, still valued Hitler’s free will and he wanted Hitler to be able to make choices of his own. Thus World War II was invoked, but nonetheless, God refused to make Hitler to win the war.
So I think sometimes God does not refuse to let something happen what we take as “bad”, for the sake of our own free will. Hence the fact that God sometimes refuses what we take as “good” to happen does not mean that God is evil (since he chose to refuse out of his goodness represented as respecting human free will). Hence God is absolute sovereign, and at the same time we have our own free will and we are accountable for our own action, and what’s more, the idea that God is ultimately allowing(permitting) bad things to happen does not make him evil.

So based on this logic, I think I can safely conclude that not only that “if God refuses, then it does not happen” is true, but what is also true is “if something does not happen in this universe, then God refused to make it happen as the supreme authority”.

Am I right?

Thanks…

Possibly, a better way of saying what I think you might be trying to say is a quote from St Augustine, quoted by St Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologica ( I,q.19,art.12), where St Thomas discusses the five expressions traditionally assigned to the Divine Will:
“Nothing is done, unless the Almighty wills it to be done, either by permitting it, or by actually doing it.” Here, St Thomas following St Augustine, calls permission and operation the will of God. God permits us to sin because He created us with free will. Yet, without God’s knowledge and will, we can neither do good or evil.

 

[dominique1313]

You are correct in your observation that God does not restrict our free will. However, I think we should revise the word “refuse” in this statement.

The word “refuse” has a direct connotation of “not doing something requested”. From the dictionary:

In this case, however, we’re simply talking about God “not restricting the use of free will”. Therefore, the statement should simply be: “I ended up throwing my pencil against the well because God did not prohibit it.” That is a true statement.

Hello,
Thanks for the feedback. Is the below statement true then?
“If I request God for something and it turns out that God did not grant my request for sure, then God must refused my request”

I just want to make sure that my understanding is correct

 

[wadramli]

God question . supple young minds are teaching me so much .

Don’t think it comes down to refuse or allow with the Lord God . too instant and calculus like .

I think it would help if you try to make a mock world of your own. You know a universe that you rig up yourself that you can test your question with . go to the math dept and avail yourself to algorisms that return random numbers .start with easy ones and then pick the one you like the best and rig up your universe. Then test .

 

[Richca]

Hello,
Thanks for the feedback. Is the below statement true then?
“If I request God for something and it turns out that God did not grant my request for sure, then God must refused my request”

I just want to make sure that my understanding is correct

God knows much better what is best for us than we do ourselves. If we ask something of God and it appears that He does not grant that specific request, it is because He has another better plan for you. Or, God may grant that request in the future at a time He knows best. Or, God may answer that request not with what you may be specifically asking but with something better for you.

 

[wadramli]

The issue I see here is that “something “ in the question to begin with . suppose you ask god to make you happy. Next day you are an insane person running all over the place happy beyond belief saying you’re the queen of some country or thinking you’re a great music star with fans to cover the planet .

Your request was answered but you are insane . you will live the rest of yoru always happy but crazy

You ask god to make you few inches taller . the problem next day you are scheduled to be in an accident ( god forbid) and those extra inches of height will spell the end of it all for you. God did not refuse to make you taller . he refused to let you go next day .

See to ask god for something you need to know the future . you have to be all knowing before you can say he refused you or not . you ask hm something you are asking him to either stop time or change the whole future so you can get your wish .

thats why i suggested you do a a random system to check . sometimes i do not have enough dates to give to the orphans and i have to figure a way to give it to them in fair way , in a random way . however i think the world we live in offers the maximum degree of free will possible given the beings we are

Something like that