"If straight Christians are so offended by Gay people, why don't they just stop having them?"

[Gaber]

How profound, kind of along the lines of “What if they gave a war and nobody came?”

I’m a Nam era kid. I boucoup appreciate that.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Given the state of the world today, though things are getting better, maybe yours is a good idea! But still, why do **we **have such a prejudice about what amounts to a condition as distinct from a choice?

Are you including yourself when you say “we”?

 

[Gaber]

When did you stop beating your wife? Is this the same argument?

I think you have a good point. Thanks. It might be better stated " “Why don’t the many straight Christians are so offended by Gay people just stop having them?” I’m thinking that the wifebeating thing is pretty obviously a trap. And we could get into how perps are taking the position of power in a dynamic they themselves expereinced. But in my view the title quote is about an inevitability that is treated less than kindly by many who may very well themselves be in fear or ignorance, and rely on a smewhat disfunctionl piety to deal with the question.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[wendy_w]

Isn’t that kind of a catch-all over-generalization? \While all societies have a criminal element that self-justifiy even the athiests I know aer very ethical people, some moreso thatn some f my Christian friends. That assesment just seems to broad and casual for what I see.

I don’t think so 30 years ago abortion wasn’t legal and now it is accepted, movies that use to be R-rated now are PG. It seems to me that people can justify anything, this however is just my opinion. I didn’t say athiests or other religions are not ethical people. I just think more and more people justify there actions on what suits there needs at the time.

 

[Gaber]

“Gay” is a contrived term. People used to be named Gay at birth before the term was misused to cover for homosexual activity. No one is born “gay”. That is mantle they take up later in life as a political cause.

Yes, and “gay” also and more prvalently was used to mean “happy” or showing a carefree lively mood. And of course, being a prudish a Nation as we are, being founded in part by those who were to extreme in that department than even the English, we have political and other cntentions about what is a predictable occurrence in our population, one that, by whatever agency, is not a choice, but an orientation. “Catholic,” in that sense is a “contrived term.” It used to more broadly mean “universal,” apart from its religious connotation. So what point are you trying to make, since yo seem irritated by this subject?

 

[Gaber]

I don’t think so 30 years ago abortion wasn’t legal and now it is accepted, movies that use to be R-rated now are PG. It seems to me that people can justify anything, this however is just my opinion. I didn’t say athiests or other religions are not ethical people. I just think more and more people justify there actions on what suits there needs at the time.

Yes, you are right, even if we call it “religion.”

 

[Neofight]

Don’t you commonly say “I have/have not a fathe, mother, brother, sister child?” Why would you evade the question by false piety?

There is plenty of false piety going around, it seems, so I’ll certainly take your criticism to heart. But, I think all of us should first remove the log from our own eye before pointing out the splinter in someone else’s.

This issue, just like abortion, is watered down too often.

Homosexuality is not a sin, anymore than hetrosexuality is a sin. The sin is the sex act outside of the sacrament of marriage, whether homosexual or hetrosexual. Therefore, a homosexual practicing chastity, is not in a sinful condition. But, many seem eager to chastise the homosexual while turning a blind eye to adultery and fornication by the hetrosexual.

And, while many are outspoken against abortion, they do so without taking on the bigger picture, that of the sanctity of human life, so they rally to end abortion but either justify, support or just do nothing to stop captial punishment.

Peace and all good.

 

[fix]

Yes, and “gay” also and more prvalently was used to mean “happy” or showing a carefree lively mood. And of course, being a prudish a Nation as we are, being founded in part by those who were to extreme in that department than even the English, we have political and other cntentions about what is a predictable occurrence in our population, one that, by whatever agency, is not a choice, but an orientation. “Catholic,” in that sense is a “contrived term.” It used to more broadly mean “universal,” apart from its religious connotation. So what point are you trying to make, since yo seem irritated by this subject?

The word Catholic and the use of the term gay are not related in any possible way. Gay was started to cover over what was socially unacceptable just as pro choice is a contrived term to cover up what abortion really is.

Calling oneself “gay” is a choice. It is a political movement.

 

[Gaber]

Are you including yourself when you say “we”?

I have a mind, therefore harbor preconceptions and prejudices of some kinds and to some degrees. But I like the idea that we can use teleology! It is good to step out of your mind, as Taj Mahal and other vocalists recommend, and see the mind for what it is. It puts thinks/things in a more useful perspective.

bing.com/videos/search?q=take+a+giant+step+lyrics&view=detail&mid=D11936C8E21987FFE850D11936C8E21987FFE850&first=0&qpvt=take+a+giant+step+lyrics

 

[fix]

Homosexuality is not a sin, anymore than hetrosexuality is a sin. The sin is the sex act outside of the sacrament of marriage, whether homosexual or hetrosexual. Therefore, a homosexual practicing chastity, is not in a sinful condition. But, many seem eager to chastise the homosexual while turning a blind eye to adultery and fornication by the hetrosexual.

Homosexual inclination is not ordered toward the good. Heterosexuality is ordered toward the good. That is a philosophical point that gets overlooked and minimized too often.

I see people eager to minimize the normalization of what is disordered under the banner of charity and tolerance. I see people misdirecting the issue constantly by bringing up other sins and social ills.

And, while many are outspoken against abortion, they do so without taking on the bigger picture, that of the sanctity of human life, so they rally to end abortion but either justify, support or just do nothing to stop captial punishment.

Off topic but capital punishment and abortion are not of the same moral weight.

 

[ekk1]

Parents have children and some of them, about 3.5%, are gay. How is that political?

Kinsey first estimated it at about 10% Conservative organizations like to put the number at 1-3%. The 2000 US Census reported 1% of households claiming to be gay couples. Most experts put the number close to 10%. On average, in carefully worded surveys, the average American thinks that 20% of people are gay in the US, which is a very interesting result.

All of this has been collated by Gallup: gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx

All that we really know is that it is probably a lot higher than 1% and a lot lower than 20%. With the support of people like the President, and the increasing acceptance of gay marriage, we are likely to get a better handle on the actual numbers. In 1992 38% of Americans believed that homosexuality should be considered and acceptable alternative lifestyle. In 2002, that number was 51%. If you extrapolate that trend forward, then the number is likely to be more like two thirds of Americans today accept homosexuality as an acceptable life style.

According to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, 78% of Americans are Christian, with 23% of them being Catholic. If one compares the number of adults who accept homosexuality as a valid lifestyle to the percentage of Christians, and the percentage of Catholics, it is fair to say that most American Christians and many American Catholics accept homosexuality as a valid alternative lifestyle.

These facts will make it easier to get more accurate estimates of the number of homosexuals in the US>

 

[Holly3278]

Homosexuality cannot be diagnosed in the womb. Homosexuality usually doesn’t present itself until adolescence. That said, even if I did know I was pregnant with a homosexual person, I still would not murder him or her. I would, however, raise him or her to be chaste.

 

[J_Peterson]

Off topic but capital punishment and abortion are not of the same moral weight.

If you are allowed to make these distinctions with regards to taking a human life, why can’t there be distinctions within sexuality. Can you see the difference between a promiscous homosexual and one that is in a loving, monogomous, long term relationship? How about married homosexual couples that adopt children? How is that any different than an infertile heterosexual couple that adopts?

 

[Neofight]

Homosexual inclination is not ordered toward the good. Heterosexuality is ordered toward the good. That is a philosophical point that gets overlooked and minimized too often.

I see people eager to minimize the normalization of what is disordered under the banner of charity and tolerance. I see people misdirecting the issue constantly by bringing up other sins and social ills.

Off topic but capital punishment and abortion are not of the same moral weight.

Really, so there is a hierachy of evil? Abortion is more evil than genocide?

And,because hetrosexuality is ordered toward the good and homosexuality is not, adultery, or rape, is less evil than homosexual sex.

Hmmm, I’m sorry, but that argument is not going to have me re-thinking James 2:12.

 

[wendy_w]

Homosexuality cannot be diagnosed in the womb. Homosexuality usually doesn’t present itself until adolescence. That said, even if I did know I was pregnant with a homosexual person, I still would not murder him or her. I would, however, raise him or her to be chaste.

Yet another good point, because in our society today many children are killed because they are not perfect(birth defects, etc). I think this original statement was just one more way to attack the faith, I don’t think anyone in this forum is saying they hate gay people.

 

[fix]

If you are allowed to make these distinctions with regards to taking a human life, why can’t there be distinctions within sexuality.

They are not my private opinion.

The state has the authority to take the life of a guilty person. The state has no right to kill an innocent person.

Can you see the difference between a promiscous homosexual and one that is in a loving, monogomous, long term relationship?

No. Why do using the terms monogamy and loving transform bad acts into good acts?

You just as easily say promiscuity is loving and consenting and much else.

How about married homosexual couples that adopt children? How is that any different than an infertile heterosexual couple that adopts?

Huge difference. One is an actual mother and father.

 

[fix]

Really, so there is a hierachy of evil?

There are mortal sins that are worse than other mortal sins, sure. See the CCC.

Abortion is more evil than genocide?

Did I say that?

And,because hetrosexuality is ordered toward the good and homosexuality is not, adultery, or rape, is less evil than homosexual sex.

You are confusing acts with inclinations. I said the homosexual inclination is not ordered toward the good. This is what the Church teaches.

Hmmm, I’m sorry, but that argument is not going to have me re-thinking James 2:12.

You might want to start with Church teaching.

 

[GEddie]

For instance, straight heterosexual Christians?

That sector isn’t demanding special rights.

 

[Kenny_Kamel]

Given your “signature,” it is not surprising that you say what you do. How do you see that statement as mucking anything up? It simply points to the awkwardness of the situation in that those who consider homosexuality a deviance nevertheless have to deal with the fact that it occurs. Of course it is ironic. A the confusion, from my perspective, not being "gay,"btw, is that the confusion is on the part of those who militate against homosexuality as a condition of bith.And of course I agree wit the “do no harm” part of moral considerations, but generally speaking, people who have no homosexual family member or friend, or who are pious without experience, are very nieve and tout their limited perception of dogma instead of expereince and compassion. You may not be one of those, but I’ve encountered many who are simply dagmatic to the point of bing draconian. I personally don’t go for that.

Take your crusade elsewhere, you’re mucking this thread up.

 

[Neofight]

There are mortal sins that are worse than other mortal sins, sure. See the CCC.

Did I say that?

You are confusing acts with inclinations. I said the homosexual inclination is not ordered toward the good. This is what the Church teaches.

You might want to start with Church teaching.

And you, are confusing the “gravity of sin” (CCC1858) with one sin being “worse than another”. In the scenario I painted, the abortion and capital punishment are the the same sin (murder). The CCC, in talking the gravity of sin, specifically cites the grave difference between different sins (using theft as opposed to murder as an example). And, in my second scenario, the unchasteness of homosexual sex and hetrosexual adultery is the same sin.

I subscribe to the teachings of the Church, but I also strive to keep them in the proper context.

Pax