If the abortion issue weren't enough

[ishii]

There are none.

If the government can force you to carry every pregnancy to term, then it can also compel you to only carry two to term, or to only have one child, or have only boys or only white children. .

Actually, there is no evidence of this happening. What has happened is for atheistic countries like China to force women to have abortions.

The pro-life argument is myopic, it does not take the time to think about the unintended consequences of its implementation. The position is basically a plea for theocracy. But I choose liberty. .

On the contrary, the pro-abortion rights argument is myopic. The original proponents of legal abortion said that abortion would be safe and rare. It would merely eliminate back alley “coathanger” abortions. What happened was that abortion became a form of birth control. I choose liberty for all - including the unborn.

So, I would defend your right to have as many children as you want to, even if there were health consequences that you understood and accepted, and to not use birth control, regardless of your ability to provide for your progeny, and in return you must defend my right to use birth control and to have access to a safe abortion, at least up until the second trimester. If you can’t live with that, then move to Iran, or some other country where the wise and unerring government makes all the hard choices for the naive and hapless citizenry.

Actually, the abortion rights movement came out of the belief that “enlightened” people must help the naive and hapless make decisions on how many children to have - that is what gave rise to Planned Parenthood as founded by Margaret Sanger. The abortion rights people are basically a bunch of racist bigots who don’t want to see “undesirables” being born. I suppose there are some who are just really naive and stupid. I wouldn’t want to be either.

Ishii

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Probably a PP worker, this is how blinded they tend to be.

Notice the derailment of the topic from the video of the PP manager obviously comfortable with all the issues of child sex slavery…including “from the waist up” (how to keep girls “working” after an abortion).

Here is a great book about the inside of Planned Parenthood, from the former director of the PP in Bryan Texas (who is converting to Catholicism - Go Abby!).

amazon.com/Unplanned-Dramatic-Planned-Parenthood-Eye-Opening/dp/1414339399/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296851508&sr=1-1

 

[StTommyMore]

Probably a PP worker, this is how blinded they tend to be.

Notice the derailment of the topic from the video of the PP manager obviously comfortable with all the issues of child sex slavery…including “from the waist up” (how to keep girls “working” after an abortion).

Here is a great book about the inside of Planned Parenthood, from the former director of the PP in Bryan Texas (who is converting to Catholicism - Go Abby!).

amazon.com/Unplanned-Dramatic-Planned-Parenthood-Eye-Opening/dp/1414339399/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296851508&sr=1-1

I have hear do of this book, and have been thinking of buying it.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I have hear do of this book, and have been thinking of buying it.

Well I linked the Amazon edition but Ignatius Press is selling them with an intro by David Bereit (40 Days for Life founder) and a foreword by Fr. Frank Pavone, so I would buy that issue. Other than those 2 sections, the book is identical.

You will not be able to put it down, guaranteed. Abby really thought she was helping women by first volunteering, then working for PP. Until the day she actually saw an abortion through holding the ultrasound wand, she counseled women and justified everything that has been said on this thread. Highly, HIGHLY recommend.

And her account tells us that if we allow protesters to stand outside abortion clinics with graphic signs, people like Abby, who want to leave the abortion industry, will have nowhere to go. The ONLY reason she was finally able to reach the conclusion that abortion is wrong is that she was able to turn to the 40 Days prayer warriors because she recognized they really cared.

 

[z0wb13]

Before anything I’d ask for the sake of others discussing that you stop being so insulting z0wb13. It seems every post you need to compare anyone your arguing against as children, or self-righteous. Well your side isn’t exactly the position of love and consern…

perhaps i went too far in comparing angelerulastiel to a child. it’s a funny line from a funny movie, and i didn’t really think that much of it. but it’s frustrating having to repeat arguments that i have already made. and what i said was that the argument was callous and thoughtless. i have been very careful not to call any person stupid, because i’m trying to construct a strong argument, and ad hominem attacks do not lead to strong arguments.

that’s how a debate works. the stronger argument wins, regardless of whoever is making it. and when i’m accused of making a false dichotomy by someone that just breezed in here, and misrepresents my argument, then i really don’t have that much sympathy if their feelings are hurt when i point out how off-base they are.

so to be clear, i don’t think that angelerulastiel is stupid, i think what they said was stupid. i’m sure if they had taken the time to read the rest of the posts, they would have made a more cogent argument. but no hard feelings.

zz912: No kidding. The impression I’m getting is that z0wb13 is young and bright, and is so full of self-confidence and pride that he/she thinks others who have a different opinion are stupid b/c they would agree with him/her otherwise. That and either has procurred an abortion or provides abortions and is reflexively lashing out in anger to protect him/her from admitting the evil abortion is. If I’m wrong I apologize in advance.

beafedor: Translation: She has had one or multiple abortions, is suffering, in denial and trying to justify her life choices.

three things here. first, this is an ad hominem attack. so while i accept your apology, zz912, it doesn’t really matter. it wouldn’t matter if the pope was making the argument if he followed the rules of logic and debate. second, when you make assumptions, you end up looking like a donkey. none of what you said describes me even remotely, again, not that it would matter as far as debate is concerned. third, romans 2:1, matthew 7:1, john 8:7. i actually read the bible despite not being a christian, yet i’m always amazed at how few so-called christians seem to follow some of the most well known rules about not looking down their noses at other people.

here’s the thing, i came to this forum looking for intelligent religious people to talk to, and i ended up with this, whatever this is. StTommyMore, despite making the same argument 4 times, actually took the time to read my arguments, and i think he even went to the wikipedia fallacies page to look up false dilemma. so that shows me that some of the people on here are thoughtful, which is why i’ll keep coming back here to stir up this hornets nest.

catharina:
m certain that Tommy has no horses, low or high.

Your logic however, makes me concede that in
your view and acc to your logic, all laws against
murder, homicide, etc., should be abolished at once.
The government has no right to outlaw the taking
of any life, however innocent. Abolish the laws.

That’s where your logic leads.

^^^^^^^^ is this a poem? i can’t follow you whatsoever. abolish what laws? no wait, you’re making a slippery slope argument that if abortion is legal, which it is, then murder AND homicide will become legal. i think you missed my point, but i don’t really know what your saying. what does “your view and acc to your logic” mean?

@ ishii: you do me a huge disservice by not presenting my argument. it was a little more thought out than how you are showing it. my argument isn’t about the morality of abortion at all, it’s about retaining reproductive rights for the individual and not giving them to the state.

in fact, i’ll readily concede that abortion is immoral according to catholic teachings. but not everyone is a catholic. a system where every person has to follow the rules of a single religion is called a theocracy.

my morality makes me think that birth control should be in the public drinking water, and that it should only be shut off when two parents (and they can be gay parents in my mind) have been married for at least three years and have shown that they have both the means and desire to raise children.

now, it’s easy to pick this apart, so don’t waste your time. the point is that i would never force my morality on other people. so catholics don’t want to use birth control? that’s their choice. now, i think it’s immoral to have more kids than you can afford, because it necessarily detracts from the resources and opportunities that can be provided for the children that you already have. but it isn’t my decision to tell other people how to raise their children.

also, you misrepresent the one-child policy of china. people aren’t forced to have abortions, but they are fined if they have more than one child AND they fall into several distinct categories. the policy effects about one third of all chinese. so not only are you making an illogical connection between atheism and abortion rights, you’re just wrong.

 

[z0wb13]

TheRealJuliane: Probably a PP worker, this is how blinded they tend to be.

Notice the derailment of the topic from the video of the PP manager obviously comfortable with all the issues of child sex slavery…including “from the waist up” (how to keep girls “working” after an abortion).

i can discredit this as easy as i did when it was aimed at zz912 and beafedor. but you go a little further by saying i derailed this topic, in fact i didn’t. i think it was Tommy that made it into the morality of abortion. I have already once tried to put it back on track.

the point i made back then was that this video is intellectually dishonest. the “reporters” don’t identify themselves, either to you or the people at PP. so while the implication is that the two people that went in were supposed to look like a pimp and an underage prostitute, there is no way of knowing. i actually watched the whole thing. it was heavily edited, and there was one questionable moment when the person holding the camera flipped it over and away for no apparent reason, and dialogue was inserted that may or may not have actually been spoken. the whole thing is a hatchet job.

now, you can disagree with PP if you want to, but don’t use this a some sort of evidence of their evil intentions, because if this is evidence, then borat is a documentary.

 

[StTommyMore]

i can discredit this as easy as i did when it was aimed at zz912 and beafedor. but you go a little further by saying i derailed this topic, in fact i didn’t. i think it was Tommy that made it into the morality of abortion. I have already once tried to put it back on track.

the point i made back then was that this video is intellectually dishonest. the “reporters” don’t identify themselves, either to you or the people at PP. so while the implication is that the two people that went in were supposed to look like a pimp and an underage prostitute, there is no way of knowing. i actually watched the whole thing. it was heavily edited, and there was one questionable moment when the person holding the camera flipped it over and away for no apparent reason, and dialogue was inserted that may or may not have actually been spoken. the whole thing is a hatchet job.

now, you can disagree with PP if you want to, but don’t use this a some sort of evidence of their evil intentions, because if this is evidence, then borat is a documentary.

I think that on multiple news outlets they have verified it as genuine. In addition law enforcement has been brought into it. I would say that the days are numbered for the so-called “clinics”

 

[z0wb13]

I think that on multiple news outlets they have verified it as genuine. In addition law enforcement has been brought into it. I would say that the days are numbered for the so-called “clinics”

i saw an interview with the young women on fox news last night where she was discussing the piece. so it’s been verified that it exists. but you are only getting half of the story. PP reported the incident to law enforcement. they didn’t collude in sex trafficking. the video is certainly unflattering, but PP doesn’t promote prostitution. the claim is absurd.

Is It An Underage Sex Slave Ring, Or A Hoax? Either Way, Planned Parenthood Calls The FBI

Rachel Slajda | January 25, 2011, 2:19PM

In the course of five days this month, eight Planned Parenthood clinics in five states and D.C. reported getting the same visit: A man said he needed treatment for a sexually transmitted disease and then, once alone with a staff member, implied that he ran an interstate sex trafficking ring that involves minors and illegal immigrants.

The Planned Parenthood Federation of America thinks that the visits, which happened between Jan. 11 and 15, are part of a James O’Keefe-style “sting.” But the group called in the FBI anyway.

“These multi-state visits from men claiming to be engaged in sex trafficking of minors may be a hoax,” Cecile Richards, president of Planned Parenthood, wrote in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder last week. “However, if the representations made by this man are true,” she wrote, they indicate violations of several sex trafficking, prostitution and child sex laws.

…

The Planned Parenthood spokeswoman said that individual clinics called local law enforcement. When the national organization noticed the pattern, she said, they wrote to Holder. She said that there’s been some contact between the group and the FBI but declined to elaborate.

so yes, law enforcement has been brought into it, but not for the reasons that you seem to imply.

 

[StTommyMore]

i saw an interview with the young women on fox news last night where she was discussing the piece. so it’s been verified that it exists. but you are only getting half of the story. PP reported the incident to law enforcement. they didn’t collude in sex trafficking. the video is certainly unflattering, but PP doesn’t promote prostitution. the claim is absurd.

so yes, law enforcement has been brought into it, but not for the reasons that you seem to imply.

wrong again. Law enforcement in NJ and VA is moving foreward with an investigation into the PP

 

[catharina]

from catharina:
"Your logic however, makes me concede that in
your view and acc to your logic, all laws against
murder, homicide, etc., should be abolished at once.
The government has no right to outlaw the taking
of any life, however innocent. Abolish the laws.

That’s where your logic leads."

^^^^^^^^ is this a poem? i can't follow you whatsoever. abolish what laws? no wait, you're making a slippery slope argument that if abortion is legal, which it is, then murder AND homicide will become legal. i think you missed my point, but i don't really know what your saying. what does "your view and acc to your logic" mean?

**
Your view, your logic sees no need for morality.
So why not dismiss all laws that forbid murder, homicide, manslaughter, etc…
Without morality, who needs any law? No one does.**

 

[z0wb13]

wrong again. Law enforcement in NJ and VA is moving foreward with an investigation into the PP

back it up, send me a link. the people that filmed the stuff is likely to be investigated as well, because in most states it’s illegal to film someone without their consent.

and what about doctor-patient privilege? i’m not sure if it would apply here, but it sets a bad precedent. i want doctors to be honest with me, i don’t want them to have couch everything they say for fear of reprisal.

but the thing that bugs me the most is that there wasn’t a prostitution ring, so the most you could be prosecuted for is conspiracy. it is an extraordinarily hard charge to prove, and it’s a waste of time. it’s more like a thought crime, because there is no victim.

if you can prove that that the women was encouraging people to lie on medical forms, then yes she was committing some sort of fraud. but the fact that the incident was reported immediately casts doubt on the charge that she was encouraging illegal activity.

maybe she was going along with the story in an effort to get more information, so that she could more accurately report he findings to police. we’ll never know, so it’s kind of a moot point.

anyway, the lady was fired, so i don’t know what else you can read into it. i don’t think you can make the connection that she is representative of the entire organization. that’s like saying that the priest scandals of a few years ago is representative of the entire church. it’s a hasty generalization.

if you want to forget about the birth control side of PP for a minute, they offer great reproductive health services at very reasonable prices. this leads to less birth defects, less infant death, improved cancer screening, etc.

they do a lot of good work, things you could agree with. it shouldn’t be ignored.

 

[z0wb13]

**
Your view, your logic sees no need for morality.
So why not dismiss all laws that forbid murder, homicide, manslaughter, etc…
Without morality, who needs any law? No one does.**

i’m a very moral person, as far as i’m concerned. i think most people probably think that about themselves. it doesn’t really say that much for the relative merits of anybody’s morality.

 

[StTommyMore]

back it up, send me a link. the people that filmed the stuff is likely to be investigated as well, because in most states it’s illegal to film someone without their consent.

and what about doctor-patient privilege? i’m not sure if it would apply here, but it sets a bad precedent. i want doctors to be honest with me, i don’t want them to have couch everything they say for fear of reprisal.

but the thing that bugs me the most is that there wasn’t a prostitution ring, so the most you could be prosecuted for is conspiracy. it is an extraordinarily hard charge to prove, and it’s a waste of time. it’s more like a thought crime, because there is no victim.

if you can prove that that the women was encouraging people to lie on medical forms, then yes she was committing some sort of fraud. but the fact that the incident was reported immediately casts doubt on the charge that she was encouraging illegal activity.

maybe she was going along with the story in an effort to get more information, so that she could more accurately report he findings to police. we’ll never know, so it’s kind of a moot point.

anyway, the lady was fired, so i don’t know what else you can read into it. i don’t think you can make the connection that she is representative of the entire organization. that’s like saying that the priest scandals of a few years ago is representative of the entire church. it’s a hasty generalization.

if you want to forget about the birth control side of PP for a minute, they offer great reproductive health services at very reasonable prices. this leads to less birth defects, less infant death, improved cancer screening, etc.

they do a lot of good work, things you could agree with. it shouldn’t be ignored.

There have been 8 videos in multiple states. Sounds like a systemic problem to me. (Systemic means that is is a problem throughout the organization)

 

[RobbyS]

well now youre changing the subject completely. i thought the pimp was victimizing people, now it’s PP?

I know all about the aftermath of abortion, thank you vey much. the people at PP are, in my experience, some of the most professional and generous I have ever met.

but let’s return to the topic of intellectual honesty. or let’s just call it reality. PP does not promote prostitution, any indication that they might comes from edited clips that were obtained under false pretenses. however, PP does offer the highest quality womens health services available.

and you seem to again overlooked the fact that there is no child prostitution being committed, so i would have to assume that you would have this women sent to prison for thought crime. but, you clearly are not interested in the truth. all you want is to reinforce the ideas that are already banging around in your head.

Planned Parenthood is very much in favor of helping very young girls get abortions with/without the consent of their parents. What makes you think that someone who thinks of an unborn child on the same more level as a diseased kidney might not feel that she is helping a young girl who has enough on her plate without having to go through a pregnancy?

 

[RobbyS]

back it up, send me a link. the people that filmed the stuff is likely to be investigated as well, because in most states it’s illegal to film someone without their consent.

and what about doctor-patient privilege? i’m not sure if it would apply here, but it sets a bad precedent. i want doctors to be honest with me, i don’t want them to have couch everything they say for fear of reprisal.

but the thing that bugs me the most is that there wasn’t a prostitution ring, so the most you could be prosecuted for is conspiracy. it is an extraordinarily hard charge to prove, and it’s a waste of time. it’s more like a thought crime, because there is no victim.

if you can prove that that the women was encouraging people to lie on medical forms, then yes she was committing some sort of fraud. but the fact that the incident was reported immediately casts doubt on the charge that she was encouraging illegal activity.

maybe she was going along with the story in an effort to get more information, so that she could more accurately report he findings to police. we’ll never know, so it’s kind of a moot point.

anyway, the lady was fired, so i don’t know what else you can read into it. i don’t think you can make the connection that she is representative of the entire organization. that’s like saying that the priest scandals of a few years ago is representative of the entire church. it’s a hasty generalization.

if you want to forget about the birth control side of PP for a minute, they offer great reproductive health services at very reasonable prices. this leads to less birth defects, less infant death, improved cancer screening, etc.

they do a lot of good work, things you could agree with. it shouldn’t be ignored.

*If you want to forget about the birth control side of PP for a minute, they offer great reproductive health services at very reasonable prices. this leads to less birth defects, less infant death, improved cancer screening, etc.

• Population control is the raison d’etat for Planned Parenthood. But even evil men love their grand children. Think Don Coreleone.

 

[catharina]

i’m a very moral person, as far as i’m concerned. i think most people probably think that about themselves. it doesn’t really say that much for the relative merits of anybody’s morality.

**Very interesting, I’m sure.

However, ignoring the enormity of taking innocent
human life doesn’t convey that notion to me.**

 

[angelerulastiel]

perhaps i went too far in comparing angelerulastiel to a child. it’s a funny line from a funny movie, and i didn’t really think that much of it. but it’s frustrating having to repeat arguments that i have already made. and what i said was that the argument was callous and thoughtless. i have been very careful not to call any person stupid, because i’m trying to construct a strong argument, and ad hominem attacks do not lead to strong arguments.

that’s how a debate works. the stronger argument wins, regardless of whoever is making it. and when i’m accused of making a false dichotomy by someone that just breezed in here, and misrepresents my argument, then i really don’t have that much sympathy if their feelings are hurt when i point out how off-base they are.

so to be clear, i don’t think that angelerulastiel is stupid, i think what they said was stupid. i’m sure if they had taken the time to read the rest of the posts, they would have made a more cogent argument. but no hard feelings.

Actually, I did in fact read EVERY post before posting myself. But I felt I covered what I needed to and didn’t waste a bunch of space. You may say that my 3rd choice is callous towards rape victims, but you can’t say it’s callous towards people who chose to have sex. Also, I consider your option to murder children callous.

And if I am misrepresenting your arguments, please lay out clearly what you feel the options are. It is not a choice between someone else making the decision or you making the decision. In most cases it was the woman’s choice to have sex. The government did not make her have sex. The government is just saying you can’t commit murder. I feel that is an acceptable rule for the government to make.

If the government can’t tell you that you can’t murder children, why can they tell you can’t murder adults? And as a pre-emptive arguement against your criticism of use of children, embryos meet all the signs for life: Homeostasis, Organization, Metabolism, Growth, Adaptation, Response to stimuli, Reproduction. The heart can be seen beating via sonograph by the end of two months. Electrical brain activity can be seen at 5 or 6 weeks. It has unique DNA. It posses human DNA. It is not fully grown. Therefore it is a unique, living, human child.

 

[angelerulastiel]

perhaps i went too far in comparing angelerulastiel to a child. it’s a funny line from a funny movie, and i didn’t really think that much of it. but it’s frustrating having to repeat arguments that i have already made. and what i said was that the argument was callous and thoughtless. i have been very careful not to call any person stupid, because i’m trying to construct a strong argument, and ad hominem attacks do not lead to strong arguments.

that’s how a debate works. the stronger argument wins, regardless of whoever is making it. and when i’m accused of making a false dichotomy by someone that just breezed in here, and misrepresents my argument, then i really don’t have that much sympathy if their feelings are hurt when i point out how off-base they are.

so to be clear, i don’t think that angelerulastiel is stupid, i think what they said was stupid. i’m sure if they had taken the time to read the rest of the posts, they would have made a more cogent argument. but no hard feelings.

Actually, I did in fact read EVERY post before posting myself. But I felt I covered what I needed to and didn’t waste a bunch of space. You may say that my 3rd choice is callous towards rape victims, but you can’t say it’s callous towards people who chose to have sex. Also, I consider your option to murder children callous.

And if I am misrepresenting your arguments, please lay out clearly what you feel the options are. It is not a choice between someone else making the decision or you making the decision. In most cases it was the woman’s choice to have sex. The government did not make her have sex. The government is just saying you can’t commit murder. I feel that is an acceptable rule for the government to make.

If the government can’t tell you that you can’t murder children, why can they tell you can’t murder adults? And as a pre-emptive arguement against your criticism of use of children, embryos meet all the signs for life: Homeostasis, Organization, Metabolism, Growth, Adaptation, Response to stimuli, Reproduction. The heart can be seen beating via sonograph by the end of two months. Electrical brain activity can be seen at 5 or 6 weeks. It has unique DNA. It posses human DNA. It is not fully grown. Therefore it is a unique, living, human child.

 

[christmary4ever]

look up equivocation. a child is not a baby. a baby is not a fetus. a fetus is not an embyo.

you keep making the same weak argument over and over, which boils down to a= b= c. but a b and c are three different things.

it’s like saying people deserve the right to vote, and people are animals, ergo animals should be allowed to vote. (it’s not really, that is an example of affirming the consequent, but i don’t think you can tell the difference.)

furthermore, you are confusing liberty (things the government can’t tell you what to do) with freedom (doing whatever you want to). and just to further muddy the water, the government can limit your life (capital punishment), liberty (prison) and your pursuit of happiness (conscription).

now, i’ll concede that third trimester abortions are pretty awful, but the reality is that 91% of abortions occur during the first trimester. what’s the difference? well, to me, a baby that’s been in the womb for eight months is a baby. i know this because one of my sisters was born a month premature, and she looked like a baby. she started walking and talking about a month after most other babies her age, but it was still a baby.

an embryo at 2 weeks looks like the period at the end of this sentence. babies and embryos are two different things.

i can’t take this anymore, it’s like arguing with a brick wall. it’s like arguing with someone that says, “but up is down. black is white. hotdogs do eat people.”

You are the brick wall… A fetus is already a human being. Tearing her to pieces is murder.
A baby does who is 1 month on the womb is no less human than a born baby. you probably
occupy the lowest place in your funky debate team. your acorn oak tree argument is
ridiculous. it does not prove that a fetus is not a human being. It merely shows that we humans
have a developmental stage.on the other hand if abortion is permissible it also allows babykillers to define when someone becomes a human being just like slaveowners defining
whether a black person is a human being or not. you cannot hide your anemic arguments behind superficial knowledge of argumentation and debate.

 

[st_lucy]

look up equivocation. a child is not a baby. a baby is not a fetus. a fetus is not an embyo.

you keep making the same weak argument over and over, which boils down to a= b= c. but a b and c are three different things.

it’s like saying people deserve the right to vote, and people are animals, ergo animals should be allowed to vote. (it’s not really, that is an example of affirming the consequent, but i don’t think you can tell the difference.)

furthermore, you are confusing liberty (things the government can’t tell you what to do) with freedom (doing whatever you want to). and just to further muddy the water, the government can limit your life (capital punishment), liberty (prison) and your pursuit of happiness (conscription).

now, i’ll concede that third trimester abortions are pretty awful, but the reality is that 91% of abortions occur during the first trimester. what’s the difference? well, to me, a baby that’s been in the womb for eight months is a baby. i know this because one of my sisters was born a month premature, and she looked like a baby. she started walking and talking about a month after most other babies her age, but it was still a baby.

an embryo at 2 weeks looks like the period at the end of this sentence. babies and embryos are two different things.

i can’t take this anymore, it’s like arguing with a brick wall. it’s like arguing with someone that says, “but up is down. black is white. hotdogs do eat people.”

Your ideas are very strange.

Can you please explain to me when does one become human? A simple age or human development will do.