If the Book of Mormon is true, what does this mean for non-Mormons?

[BartBurk]

1 Nephi 13:5-6:
And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

1 Nephi 13:8:
And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

1 Nephi 13:26:
And after they [the prophecies and testimonies of the Bible] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

1 Nephi 13:28:
Wherefore, thou seest that after the book [the Bible] hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

1 Nephi 13:34:
…the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb [Bible] which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb…"

1 Nephi 14:3:
And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, said the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.

1 Nephi 14:9:
And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

1 Nephi 14:10-11:
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

1 Nephi 14:12:
And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters [oceans]; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

1 Nephi 14:13:
And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

1 Nephi 14:15-16:
And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth. And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

1 Nephi 14:17:
And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

1 Nephi 22:13:
And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.

1 Nephi 22:14:
And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it.

2 Nephi 6:12:
And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfill his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written things.

2 Nephi 10:16:
Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

2 Nephi 28:18:
But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

If the Book of Mormon is true it doesn’t prove the LDS Church is true, but it does prove the Catholic Church is false. If the Book of Mormon is false, it does prove the LDS Church is false.

 

[Loml]

Its false and without any credibility whatsoever.

 

[zerinus]

If the Book of Mormon is true it doesn’t prove the LDS Church is true, but it does prove the Catholic Church is false. If the Book of Mormon is false, it does prove the LDS Church is false.

The Book of Mormon is true, and it doesn’t prove that the Catholic Church is false.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The only thing I want to talk about with Mormons is polygamy. Lets go there “first”. Then we can work our way over to Joe Smith.

How about the fact Smith publicly hid and denied this even from his own followers? Do you not see a fundemantal problem here?

I’m failing to grasp this concept, please explain. Is this even legal in the USA? Hows this working?

 

[BartBurk]

The Book of Mormon is true, and it doesn’t prove that the Catholic Church is false.

Moroni 8:14: Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

The Catholic Church says that little children need to be baptized.

 

[Esdra]

The Catholic Church says that little children need to be baptized.

So do many protestant Churches and the EOs and the Oriental Orthodox.

 

[ParkerD]

If the Book of Mormon is true it doesn’t prove the LDS Church is true, but it does prove the Catholic Church is false. If the Book of Mormon is false, it does prove the LDS Church is false.

BartBurk,

Both of your statements here contain wrong premises. A person considering these premises would do well to read and sincerely try to understand Jacob 5 (which, by the way, is one of the most difficult chapters in the Book of Mormon to understand, as it is an allegory and is thus symbolic). They would understand that the Book of Mormon says the Catholic church grew faster than its roots were ready to sustain, but that its roots are absolutely true and that its branches contain much that is true.

It also reiterates time and again that a person’s individual relationship with God (including two-way communication with love of God central to that communication) and with others (including love of course and all of the other aspects of following the Savior’s teachings about “love thy neighbor as thyself”) are the most important truths one needs to be dealing with in their life.

 

[BartBurk]

BartBurk,

Both of your statements here contain wrong premises. A person considering these premises would do well to read and sincerely try to understand Jacob 5 (which, by the way, is one of the most difficult chapters in the Book of Mormon to understand, as it is an allegory and is thus symbolic). They would understand that the Book of Mormon says the Catholic church grew faster than its roots were ready to sustain, but that its roots are absolutely true and that its branches contain much that is true.

It also reiterates time and again that a person’s individual relationship with God (including two-way communication with love of God central to that communication) and with others (including love of course and all of the other aspects of following the Savior’s teachings about “love thy neighbor as thyself”) are the most important truths one needs to be dealing with in their life.

So you believe the Catholic Church is a true church.

 

[KathleenGee]

Zerinus…all of you who use the name as there are several of you, you come on here and then you go back to your blog blaspheming the Eucharist…the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, denying your people the Manna of Heaven.

These writings of Mormonism say, ‘we are better than you’…is the work of the Evil One. It is ignorant. It is know nothing of the Catholic faith and history.

I hope the Catholics of Italy read more these passages and then understand what is behind the building of the Temple in the countryside around Rome…the very place St. Justin the Martyr spoke of when he described the Mass to the Roman Emperor around the year 150 AD, the structure of the Mass then very much akin to the Mass of today.

Every human institution has its good and bad. People are to keep their eyes on the truth and not look to the left or right. The Lord will look at each one of us and our own merits…of what we drew on and what we rejected in this life.

 

[ParkerD]

So you believe the Catholic Church is a true church.

Bart,
If you’re going to restate what I wrote, then restate it in the words I used, which were simple words and simple to understand.

As far as carrying on a conversation with you, then I will do that after you have shown that you have followed my suggestions–otherwise it is a moot point to continue such.

Wishing you all the best, and much fulfillment in your life–sincerely.

 

[BartBurk]

Bart,
If you’re going to restate what I wrote, then restate it in the words I used, which were simple words and simple to understand.

As far as carrying on a conversation with you, then I will do that after you have shown that you have followed my suggestions–otherwise it is a moot point to continue such.

Wishing you all the best, and much fulfillment in your life–sincerely.

You never want to have a serious discussion. I have had Zerinius and you try to tell me that Mormons don’t believe the Catholic Church is a false church. That’s disingenuous and you’re not going to get away with it with a former Mormon. I will state up front that I believe the Mormon Church is absolutely false. If you believe the Book of Mormon it necessarily follows that you believe the Catholic Church is false because the Book of Mormon is very clear about it. Why do you try to sugarcoat it? Either you believe the Book of Mormon or you don’t.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

You never want to have a serious discussion. I have had Zerinius and you try to tell me that Mormons don’t believe the Catholic Church is a false church. That’s disingenuous and you’re not going to get away with it with a former Mormon. I will state up front that I believe the Mormon Church is absolutely false. If you believe the Book of Mormon it necessarily follows that you believe the Catholic Church is false because the Book of Mormon is very clear about it. Why do you try to sugarcoat it? Either you believe the Book of Mormon or you don’t.

As a non-Mormon who knows next to nothing about Mormonism, even I can see the problem with what you say here.

It appears to me that Parker is stating that his position towards Catholicism is similar to Catholicism’s position towards Protestantism in general. Catholics don’t deny that there is some truth to what most protestants believe but say that protestants don’t have the whole picture and that some of what they believe is wrong. We would say the same thing about Mormonism, though I think we would tend to think there is less truth there (no offense meant of course, but you can see that if what you believe is further from what we believe, we would see it as containing less truth).

It would make sense that other religions feel the same way about us. This whole “do you think we’re retarded or do you think we’re right” thing is not a terribly good way of looking at things.

In terms more similar to what you are using, I think the Mormon position as presented by Parker is that Catholicism is false (that is, not in possession of the whole truth, and in possession of some falsehoods) but that there is some truth in it, with the specific reasons he already gave you. Since we say the same thing about nearly every non-Catholic religion currently in existence (though not for the same reasons as Parker claimed) I cannot see a problem with a statement like this taken in and of itself.

 

[Miriam1947]

The BOM was written to try to prove that Mormonism is a true religion even though a man invented it.

The Bible *came from the church *that was founded by Christ. The church was here before the Bible.

 

[ParkerD]

As a non-Mormon who knows next to nothing about Mormonism, even I can see the problem with what you say here.

It appears to me that Parker is stating that his position towards Catholicism is similar to Catholicism’s position towards Protestantism in general. Catholics don’t deny that there is some truth to what most protestants believe but say that protestants don’t have the whole picture and that some of what they believe is wrong. We would say the same thing about Mormonism, though I think we would tend to think there is less truth there (no offense meant of course, but you can see that if what you believe is further from what we believe, we would see it as containing less truth).

It would make sense that other religions feel the same way about us. This whole “do you think we’re retarded or do you think we’re right” thing is not a terribly good way of looking at things.

In terms more similar to what you are using, I think the Mormon position as presented by Parker is that Catholicism is false (that is, not in possession of the whole truth, and in possession of some falsehoods) but that there is some truth in it, with the specific reasons he already gave you. Since we say the same thing about nearly every non-Catholic religion currently in existence (though not for the same reasons as Parker claimed) I cannot see a problem with a statement like this taken in and of itself.

IronDonkey,

Thanks very much for your comments here. Wishing you all the best, and a wonderful day.

BartBurk,

I don’t consider that I was “sugar-coating”. I would post the entire Jacob 5, but it’s too long. A person gets and lives by as much “truth” as they seek. That is how God gives truth. Satan tries to masquerade truth so that he is followed. That is how he works.

It is up to the individual to figure out what they want, and develop a relationship with God to seek Him and find Him in the way that works for them.

 

[BartBurk]

IronDonkey,

Thanks very much for your comments here. Wishing you all the best, and a wonderful day.

BartBurk,

I don’t consider that I was “sugar-coating”. I would post the entire Jacob 5, but it’s too long. A person gets and lives by as much “truth” as they seek. That is how God gives truth. Satan tries to masquerade truth so that he is followed. That is how he works.

It is up to the individual to figure out what they want, and develop a relationship with God to seek Him and find Him in the way that works for them.

Why does that sound like relativism to me?

 

[Esdra]

The BOM was written to try to prove that Mormonism is a true religion even though a man invented it.

The Bible *came from the church *that was founded by Christ. The church was here before the Bible.

I’ll play advocatus Diabolus now: Are you sure the Church was after the Bible?
Hm, what about the Septuagint then? (The first “Bible” of the first Christians)? - It was, well, a hundred to two hundred years before Christ?!

 

[Publisher]

I’ll play advocatus Diabolus now: Are you sure the Church was after the Bible?
Hm, what about the Septuagint then? (The first “Bible” of the first Christians)? - It was, well, a hundred to two hundred years before Christ?!

Some of us beleive the “church” took it’s “myth” and “theology” from isolated passages of the LXX…sort of “re-heroed” the LXX stories with “Christian characters” now that had a distinct “Christian” theme. The stories of the NT are OT stories “re-told” with Jesus as the “new Moses” and “prophet”.

The Jewish scriptures WERE the writings the NT authors used to develop their “Christian story”…when Christianity broke away from it’s Jewish roots after 70CE, the theology took on a distinct “Greek” mythic tone.

 

[Loml]

Its false and without any credibility whatsoever.

I meant the book of mormon!!!

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I’ll play advocatus Diabolus now: Are you sure the Church was after the Bible?
Hm, what about the Septuagint then? (The first “Bible” of the first Christians)? - It was, well, a hundred to two hundred years before Christ?!

I assume you mean “before” in your question.

Some of the texts were written before the Church was founded. Some were written after.

Any of those texts were either true or false (taken in the strict sense of “not 100% true”) as soon as they were written.

But the knowledge of whether a particular text was true or false did not come about until later, when the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, declared that certain of them were true.

It is at this point that the various writings became “The Bible,” that is a collection of works which are known to be absolutely undeniable true, worth of study, etc etc. Until then the writings of, say, Paul were only known to be important thoughts of an important and intelligent person (much like some of the papers released by the various Vatican departments today).

I think much more discussion on this might be more well suited for another thread though (and I imagine there are several threads devoted to it elsewhere).

 

[JeanMichel]

If the Book of Mormon is true it doesn’t prove the LDS Church is true, but it does prove the Catholic Church is false. If the Book of Mormon is false, it does prove the LDS Church is false.

Are you equating the church of the devil, the one that persecutes the saints, with the Catholic Church? When I read these passages, I inteprete them to mean the church of the evil one and nothing more. I wonder if church is a force and not an organization or actual church body?