If the Burka is banned in France, shouldn't Nun's outfits be banned?

[didymus]

A burka, which covers the face as well, is not worn voluntarily and is nothing more than an outward sign of Islamic male oppression. Moreover, ALL women are supposed to dress that way under Islamic Sharia law. A Moslem woman may say it is a symbol of her faith, but she says that under duress, knowing that any other answer will result in a beating or other abuse from her husband, father and/or brothers.

“Traditional Catholic women may say they embrace having large families, but obviously they have been brainwashed . . .”
I think it is a little presumptuous to think we know what others really believe or are “saying under duress”.

Islamic/Middle Eastern culture has far higher standards or privacy and modesty than Western culture. A century ago US women’s dress was almost as modest at least in terms of what it covered – the form was more accentuated (think Gibson girls). Since then we have slid to our present decadence. Who are we to lecture them?

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

“Traditional Catholic women may say they embrace having large families, but obviously they have been brainwashed . . .”
I think it is a little presumptuous to think we know what others really believe or are “saying under duress”.

Islamic/Middle Eastern culture has far higher standards or privacy and modesty than Western culture. A century ago US women’s dress was almost as modest at least in terms of what it covered – the form was more accentuated (think Gibson girls). Since then we have slid to our present decadence. Who are we to lecture them?

We are purveyors of the natural law; faith and reason, that who we are. We contend (most of us anyway) that the end does not justify the means. Dictators are not to be commended for keeping order and reason can show us the difference between someone who rules and a despot, as well as the difference between what is good for me (selfishness, abortion) and the greater good (life, large families).

 

[royal_archer]

Isnt it a “democratic” society?

Then it’s free in my book.

Yes, France has elections but so do many other oppresive countries. Would you consider Iran a free country since it’s leader was democratically elected?

 

[royal_archer]

A nun’s habit does not hide her face in public.

A nun is not married nor is she seeking marriage.

A nun is a nun by her own free will and choice and represents a voluntary sacred vow.

A burka, which covers the face as well, is not worn voluntarily and is nothing more than an outward sign of Islamic male oppression. Moreover, ALL women are supposed to dress that way under Islamic Sharia law. A Moslem woman may say it is a symbol of her fath, but she says that under duress, knowing that any other answer will result in a beating or other abuse from her husband, father and/or brothers.

Is it impossible for a woman to actually want to wear a burka?

If not the burka is systemic of a greater problem. Is it a matter of the women fearing for their safety if they do not wear one? If that is the case, how does regulating what they wear protect them? Does it just become a game where since the women can’t go in public in a way their “Masters” want them to, their “masters” will simply not allow them in public? Wouldn’t allowing these women to dress this way help to identify the women that are victims of this abuse?

What if the coercion is not overt (eg threat of violence) but instead the result of brain washing or societal/cultural preasures? The women are acting freely but their “free will” has been molded by there upbringing. If this is the case, can you see the similarity with girls who dress trashy because of a society that objectifies women and cultural preasures?

 

[Lainey63]

Burka is cultural, nothing religious at all about it. A woman here i FL wanted to have her picture on her drivers license with most of her faced covered except her eyes…that was a no go.

 

[Lujack]

Yes, France has elections but so do many other oppresive countries. Would you consider Iran a free country since it’s leader was democratically elected?

How is France similar to Iran?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Burka is cultural, nothing religious at all about it. A woman here i FL wanted to have her picture on her drivers license with most of her faced covered except her eyes…that was a no go.

That was for the picture. If she want to wear her head covered, she is free to do so.

My problem with the French proposed law is that assumes that the women don’t want to wear a head covering. If a woman does not want to wear one, obviously she shouldn’t be forced. But if she wants to wear a head covering, she should be permitted to. The same for a yarmulke for Jewish man, a turban for a Sikh.

Actually, the Burqa isn’t the universal term for the head covering. That is the type worn in Afghanistan, with just the eyes showing, covered by a veil. In Saudi Arabia it is called an abaya. Other Muslim women wear a chador, a head scarf or veil.

 

[royal_archer]

How is France similar to Iran?

They both have elections. The point being: how a country is organized whether it be a kingdom, oligarchy or a country that democratically elects its leaders does not dictate whether a country is free.

 

[Lainey63]

That was for the picture. If she want to wear her head covered, she is free to do so.

My problem with the French proposed law is that assumes that the women don’t want to wear a head covering. If a woman does not want to wear one, obviously she shouldn’t be forced. But if she wants to wear a head covering, she should be permitted to. The same for a yarmulke for Jewish man, a turban for a Sikh.

Actually, the Burqa isn’t the universal term for the head covering. That is the type worn in Afghanistan, with just the eyes showing, covered by a veil. In Saudi Arabia it is called an abaya. Other Muslim women wear a chador, a head scarf or veil.

I couldn’t remember what the actual head covering was called…thanks. But I do know the burqa is the total length of the body and completely covers just about the entire body and no you can’t even see one’s eyes…it’s a netting they look through. Should that be legal anywhere in the free world…absolutely not.

 

[royal_archer]

I couldn’t remember what the actual head covering was called…thanks. But I do know the burqa is the total length of the body and completely covers just about the entire body and no you can’t even see one’s eyes…it’s a netting they look through. Should that be legal anywhere in the free world…absolutely not.

What is your rationale for the opinion it should be illegal to dress in such a way?

 

[Pug]

So if you’re going to ban the Burka in a free country, shouldn’t the nun’s outfit be banned also?

No. If it is a “free” country, then the majority is free to have fanciful laws, provided they can get away with it in the current milieu.

France considers herself a secular state, no?, so that might mean that they would choose to ban any sort of overall religious costume from the public streets. No Hasidic clothing, no habits, no tribal religious garb, no saffron monk outfits, no burkas, etc.

Didn’t it used to be illegal to wear clericals (a Catholic priest garb) on the streets in France? Is it still so? If it is, or if it used to be, then it is very much in keeping with the history of the country to ban a burka. Nothing odd there at all.

 

[Lainey63]

What is your rationale for the opinion it should be illegal to dress in such a way?

The same reason a woman should not be forced to wear a medal chasity belt. Women in Afghanistan were forced to wear the burqa by Taliban law and some still wear it today out of fear. It is degrading and dehumanizing and it takes away the dignity of the human being. I am speaking only of the burqa.

 

[royal_archer]

The same reason a woman should not be forced to wear a medal chasity belt. Women in Afghanistan were forced to wear the burqa by Taliban law and some still wear it today out of fear. It is degrading and dehumanizing and it takes away the dignity of the human being. I am speaking only of the burqa.

So is it your premist that it is impossible for a woman to want to wear it voluntarily?

If you feel it is systematic of an abusive relationship, how does making the woman wear more revealing clothing end the abuse?

 

[Lainey63]

So is it your premist that it is impossible for a woman to want to wear it voluntarily?

If you feel it is systematic of an abusive relationship, how does making the woman wear more revealing clothing end the abuse?

Who said anything about MAKING THE WOMAN wear more revealing clothing?

 

[tcm22]

Who said anything about MAKING THE WOMAN wear more revealing clothing?

Banning the burka would have the effect of forcing woman to wear more revealing clothing. The whole idea behind the garment is to conceal the woman’s appearance to the maximum extent possible.

 

[Lainey63]

Banning the burka would have the effect of forcing woman to wear more revealing clothing. The whole idea behind the garment is to conceal the woman’s appearance to the maximum extent possible.

I somehow get the impression we are talking about 2 different things…the burqa I am referring to is on this link images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Burqa_ill_artlibre_jnl.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Burqa_ill_artlibre_jnl.png&usg=__4pp-Lfbo-1g0yDaX6Wzq15tcZNo=&h=748&w=508&sz=121&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=oEjfxICz9kkIdM:&tbnh=141&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dburqa%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG Which I am just taking a shot in the dark here is probable the choice of extremists such as the Taliban and Bin Laden supporters…
That being said, it may be argued that perhaps I should wear a bag over my head, and bring another in case the first one falls off. But given the choice…the burqa or the bullet…I’d take the bullet.

 

[lion_of_judah]

why take the bullet, burka can’t be that bad.

 

[Pug]

I somehow get the impression we are talking about 2 different things…the burqa I am referring to is on this link

Yes, that looks like a burka. If a woman wishes to wear one, why not let her? Why make her behavior illegal in all the free world? If you won’t let her wear that, she will need to wear something else. What clothing would you accept as legal?

 

[tcm22]

I somehow get the impression we are talking about 2 different things…the burqa I am referring to is on this link images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Burqa_ill_artlibre_jnl.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Burqa_ill_artlibre_jnl.png&usg=__4pp-Lfbo-1g0yDaX6Wzq15tcZNo=&h=748&w=508&sz=121&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=oEjfxICz9kkIdM:&tbnh=141&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dburqa%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG Which I am just taking a shot in the dark here is probable the choice of extremists such as the Taliban and Bin Laden supporters…
That being said, it may be argued that perhaps I should wear a bag over my head, and bring another in case the first one falls off. But given the choice…the burqa or the bullet…I’d take the bullet.

No, we are talking about the same thing. As I said, the purpose of garments like the burka or the abaya in the gulf countries is to conceal a woman’s appearance.

Banning a woman from wearing one has the effect of forcing her to wear something more revealing. Get it?

 

[Lainey63]

No, we are talking about the same thing. As I said, the purpose of garments like the burka or the abaya in the gulf countries is to conceal a woman’s appearance.

Banning a woman from wearing one has the effect of forcing her to wear something more revealing. Get it?

No. Explain it to me please one more time. Are we talking about the burqa or the abaya? Appears to be 2 completely different things to me and tell me what particular region are you talking about?