If the catholic church had never existed...???

[joe370]

I am told by most non-Catholics that the Holy Bible was given to the world, exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and that the Catholic church was in no way divinely instrumental in the preservation and codification of sacred scripture, as the ecclesial guardian of sacred scripture via the guidance of the holy spirit.

If that is true then the answer to the following question must be a resounding yes:

If the Catholic church had never existed, (which would also remove the Eastern Orthodox church from the equation) - would those Christians in the protestant sphere (16th century - 21st century) - still have access to their holy Bibles, which eventually gave way to the protestant practice of sola scriptura - which is the protestants final authority vis-a-vis faith and morals? If yes then could you elaborate as to how…?

 

[ZDHayden]

I am told by most non-Catholics that the Holy Bible was given to the world, exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and that the Catholic church was in no way divinely instrumental in the preservation and codification of sacred scripture, as the ecclesial guardian of sacred scripture via the guidance of the holy spirit.

If that is true then the answer to the following question must be a resounding yes:

If the Catholic church had never existed, (which would also remove the Eastern Orthodox church from the equation) - would those Christians in the protestant sphere (16th century - 21st century) - still have access to their holy Bibles, which eventually gave way to the protestant practice of sola scriptura - which is the protestants final authority vis-a-vis faith and morals? If yes then could you elaborate as to how…?

If the Catholic and Orthodox Churches never existed, Protestantism would not exist, as, by definition, Protestantism is that heresy that broke from the Western (Catholic) Church. The European world would look totally different as well, and, to be honest, most of it would probably be Muslim. So, without the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, there would be no Bible, European (and, thus Western) culture would be unrecognizable, philosophy would be unintelligible to us, and Latin would deader.

 

[Monarch7]

The bible was not just dropped down from heaven like some protestants believe. A great book on how the bible was compiled is: How we Got the Bible,Our debt to the Catholic Church by Rt. Reverend Henry G. Graham.

It’s been a while since I’ve read it but it was a very concise histroy of the Council that compiled the bible as we Catholics know it today.

 

[Publisher]

One of the other “versions” of Christianity would have compiled their writings…as some did anyway…the various “canons” overlapped some…and we’d be reading a different Bible today.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

One of the other “versions” of Christianity would have compiled their writings…as some did anyway…the various “canons” overlapped some…and we’d be reading a different Bible today.

But would we?

Can you show how these other “versions” of Christianity grew independantly from the Catholic Church?

If you can not then they would not exist without the Catholic Church.

 

[wmscott]

If the Catholic and Orthodox Churches never existed, Protestantism would not exist, as, by definition, Protestantism is that heresy that broke from the Western (Catholic) Church. The European world would look totally different as well, and, to be honest, most of it would probably be Muslim. So, without the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, there would be no Bible, European (and, thus Western) culture would be unrecognizable, philosophy would be unintelligible to us, and Latin would deader.

Or Jewish, and still waiting for the Messiah as they do now, then Christianity would be born. maybe May 21st of this year

 

[Publisher]

But would we?

Can you show how these other “versions” of Christianity grew independantly from the Catholic Church?

If you can not then they would not exist without the Catholic Church.

Marcion who established churches in Asia Minor early on in the 2nd century was the first to suggest a separate “canon” of scripture separate from the Hebrew Scriptures…he considered Paul to be first apostle…the other apostles “missed the boat”…so Paul was chosen to fill the gap according to Marcion.

Marcion’s church rivaled the “proto/orthodox” group which hadn’t yet consolidated into one cohesive movement yet…but were well on their way by the time Marcion came on the scene…his “version” of Christianity was the only version many even knew.

 

[wmscott]

Marcion who established churches in Asia Minor early on in the 2nd century was the first to suggest a separate “canon” of scripture separate from the Hebrew Scriptures…he considered Paul to be first apostle…the other apostles “missed the boat”…so Paul was chosen to fill the gap according to Marcion.

Marcion’s church rivaled the “proto/orthodox” group which hadn’t yet consolidated into one cohesive movement yet…but were well on their way by the time Marcion came on the scene…his “version” of Christianity was the only version many even knew.

The Marcion church was not really a Christian religion, but a heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire. They rejected the writings of the Old Testament and taught that Christ was not the Son of the God of the Jews, but the Son of the good God, who was different from the God of the Ancient Covenant. This does not qualify as an answer to the OPs question because it needed the Catholic Church to begin with in order to become some kind of offshoot heresy.

 

[MontChevalier]

If the Catholic and Orthodox Churches never existed, Protestantism would not exist, as, by definition, Protestantism is that heresy that broke from the Western (Catholic) Church. The European world would look totally different as well, and, to be honest, most of it would probably be Muslim. So, without the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, there would be no Bible, European (and, thus Western) culture would be unrecognizable, philosophy would be unintelligible to us, and Latin would deader.

Well, that might be possible, that the world would be Muslim, but it would be a very different kind of Islam. The Koran adds Jesus, so that might mean they left Jesus out.

 

[Publisher]

The Marcion church was not really a Christian religion, but a heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire. They rejected the writings of the Old Testament and taught that Christ was not the Son of the God of the Jews, but the Son of the good God, who was different from the God of the Ancient Covenant. This does not qualify as an answer to the OPs question because it needed the Catholic Church to begin with in order to become some kind of offshoot heresy.

Yes, the question of the stark contrast between the God of the Hebrews verses the God Jesus revealed…the “Good God of Jesus” played the “bad God’s” game…the angry God required a sacrifice to save mankind…Jesus provided the sacrifice there by beating the angry God at his own game…Jesus freed humanity from the clutches of the angry God by fulfilling the angry God’s requirements for “forgiveness”.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well, that might be possible, that the world would be Muslim, but it would be a very different kind of Islam. The Koran adds Jesus, so that might mean they left Jesus out.

So we would have a world today without Jesus Christ?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Absolutely! Our beliefs are apostolic. Even by the time of the writing of the book of Revelation, many of the churches had fallen away and were following doctrines not from the Apostles. Of course history would look different. People who followed the same beliefs would not have been persecuted and perhaps could have flourished sooner. Its speculative of course. Although I enjoy what ifs.

 

[JonNC]

I am told by most non-Catholics that the Holy Bible was given to the world, exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and that the Catholic church was in no way divinely instrumental in the preservation and codification of sacred scripture, as the ecclesial guardian of sacred scripture via the guidance of the holy spirit.

If that is true then the answer to the following question must be a resounding yes:

If the Catholic church had never existed, (which would also remove the Eastern Orthodox church from the equation) - would those Christians in the protestant sphere (16th century - 21st century) - still have access to their holy Bibles, which eventually gave way to the protestant practice of sola scriptura - which is the protestants final authority vis-a-vis faith and morals? If yes then could you elaborate as to how…?

Hi Joe,

*Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it (real presence), especially since we concede – as we must – that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?
*- Luther

Jon

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I am told by most non-Catholics that the Holy Bible was given to the world, exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and that the Catholic church was in no way divinely instrumental in the preservation and codification of sacred scripture, as the ecclesial guardian of sacred scripture via the guidance of the holy spirit.

If that is true then the answer to the following question must be a resounding yes:

If the Catholic church had never existed, (which would also remove the Eastern Orthodox church from the equation) - would those Christians in the protestant sphere (16th century - 21st century) - still have access to their holy Bibles, which eventually gave way to the protestant practice of sola scriptura - which is the protestants final authority vis-a-vis faith and morals? If yes then could you elaborate as to how…?

As you might guess, I would point out that you would still have the Peshitta, the primary Bible of the Churches of the East.

 

[Publisher]

The “sacred history” which the CC puts forth of itself does not hold up to scruitiny when the “other groups” which claimed also to be the “true continuation” of the apostolic movement…especially when one looks at the “found sacred writings” of those groups labeled as “heretical” by those whom Catholics call the ECF’s.

Early Christianity was much more diverse in belief and practice than it is today…when only the ECF’s writings are used, one gets a much different “history” than when the “heretical” groups are also viewed as “legitimate expressions of early Christianity”…the CC/EO traditons were the one’s that “won” the struggle for dominance as “authentic Christianity”.

 

[wmscott]

The “sacred history” which the CC puts forth of itself does not hold up to scruitiny when the “other groups” which claimed also to be the “true continuation” of the apostolic movement…especially when one looks at the “found sacred writings” of those groups labeled as “heretical” by those whom Catholics call the ECF’s.

Early Christianity was much more diverse in belief and practice than it is today…when only the ECF’s writings are used, one gets a much different “history” than when the “heretical” groups are also viewed as “legitimate expressions of early Christianity”…the CC/EO traditons were the one’s that “won” the struggle for dominance as “authentic Christianity”.

It is more like the Catholic Church was the “ONE” that “Corrected” the heresies. The heretical groups were never viewed as legitimate expressions of early Christianity.

 

[joe370]

As you might guess, I would point out that you would still have the Peshitta, the primary Bible of the Churches of the East.

So the hypothetical scenario is: the Catholic church never existed, and therefore the Eastern Orthodox church never existed either. With the CC and the EOC removed from the pages of history, how would the Peshitta find its way into your hands today?

Also, the New Testament of the Peshitta, originally excluded certain disputed books such as 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude and Revelation.

 

[joe370]

One of the other “versions” of Christianity would have compiled their writings…as some did anyway…the various “canons” overlapped some…and we’d be reading a different Bible today.

So the Catholic church, in your opinion, was divinely instrumental via the guidance of the holy spirit, in the preservation and codification of the sacred canon, and if not for the CC we’d be reading a different bible today?

 

[joe370]

The Marcion church was not really a Christian religion, but a heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire. They rejected the writings of the Old Testament and taught that Christ was not the Son of the God of the Jews, but the Son of the good God, who was different from the God of the Ancient Covenant. This does not qualify as an answer to the OPs question because it needed the Catholic Church to begin with in order to become some kind of offshoot heresy.

Agree…Marcion…

 

[dcana]

I am told by most non-Catholics that the Holy Bible was given to the world, exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and that the Catholic church was in no way divinely instrumental in the preservation and codification of sacred scripture, as the ecclesial guardian of sacred scripture via the guidance of the holy spirit.

If that is true then the answer to the following question must be a resounding yes:

If the Catholic church had never existed, (which would also remove the Eastern Orthodox church from the equation) - would those Christians in the protestant sphere (16th century - 21st century) - still have access to their holy Bibles, which eventually gave way to the protestant practice of sola scriptura - which is the protestants final authority vis-a-vis faith and morals? If yes then could you elaborate as to how…?

If the Catholic Church had never existed! That is nonsensical. This is like saying, “What would plants be like if the sun never existed?” or “What would cars be like today if no one ever invented them?” If the Catholic Church never existed, then Jesus never came! God’s people would still be exclusively the Jews, waiting for their Messiah to come. The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church and His continuing presence on this earth until the end of time. It doesn’t matter if it ended up being called “The Way” Church or “The Messiah’s” Church or whatever else, instead of “The Catholic Church.” That Church is Jesus’ Church, the one He said He was founding and the one that He, in fact, founded. That Church wrote the Bible. The Gospels consist of the Catholic Matthew’s, the Catholic Mark’s, the Catholic Luke’s, and the Catholic John’s recording of the words and deeds of Jesus, and most of the rest of the NT consists of the Catholic St. Paul’s letters to the newly-founded Catholic churches in various parts of the world, his letters to the Catholic Bishops Timothy and Titus, and six letters written by the Catholic James, the Catholic John, and the Catholic Peter, who is the one whom Jesus founded His Church upon. The same Catholic Church who wrote the Scriptures, which are nothing more than (granted, very special) Church documents written for the edification and instruction of other Catholics, recognized these writings, and these alone, as her inspired writings when a few centuries later she collected them into our Church’s book which came to be known as “the Bible.” Why were dozens of other writings rejected? Because the same Church who collected the Scriptures, wrote the Scriptures. She recognized her own writings, that is, her own Holy Faith, and rejected the false gospels of the Gnostics and other groups, which she recognized as not coming from her, because these writings had things in them that were contrary to the Faith she was practicing at that time, and had always practiced. No Jesus, no Church. No Church, no Bible. Jesus’ sending of the Catholic Apostles out to preach the Gospel IS the Church. The only way Jesus could’ve come but that there be no Church is if he said to His Apostles, “What I have taught you is for you and you alone. Teach no one the things I have taught you. My teachings are to die with you.” Would we have had the Bible then? Of course not! Of course, this is utter nonsense! These Apostles were commanded to go into the world and to proclaim the Gospel, converting the world to Christ, which is identical with making these first hearers of the Gospel, and, subsequently, the rest of the world with them until the end of time, Catholic, that is, members of Christ’s mystical and “Universal” - that is, “Catholic” - body. Is the Gospel for all the world, and all who dwell therein? Did Jesus die for all men? Therefore, there is the Catholic Church, most aptly named. Whew!

Why do I care? Triumphalism? No, on the contrary. Because it is only there, through His Body, that the fullness of His Graces flow! Groups that separate themselves from this vine are like dead branches, good to be thrown into the fire and burned, if the break is big enough (e.g. the Arians), or, if the break is not complete, sick branches through which the sap trickles through (Protestantism). I only want others to have what Jesus Himself has given to His Church, which they have a right to possess, being Christians. And what has Jesus given to His Church? Himself, and, therefore, everything! Because His Church IS Himself, as it is His Body and His Bride. As St. Paul says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.”