If the catholic church had never existed...???

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I am told by most non-Catholics that the Holy Bible was given to the world, exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and that the Catholic church was in no way divinely instrumental in the preservation and codification of sacred scripture, as the ecclesial guardian of sacred scripture via the guidance of the holy spirit.
Historical Revisionism

Their assertion is partly true, the Holy Spirit “has spoken through the prophets,” and guided those who wrote the books of the Bible as well, so the Bible is a gift by the Holy Spirit, but it is not given “exclusively” (e.g. you can’t give a gift “exclusively” where you just give without someone who receiving it.) The Church is the one who received them.
 
Historical Revisionism

Their assertion is partly true, the Holy Spirit “has spoken through the prophets,” and guided those who wrote the books of the Bible as well, so the Bible is a gift by the Holy Spirit, but it is not given “exclusively” (e.g. you can’t give a gift “exclusively” where you just give without someone who receiving it.) The Church is the one who received them.
The Catholic church was the sole codifier of the holy bible and she preserves it and interprets it via the guidance of the Holy spirit?
 
They wouldn’t be here today if the Catholic Church didn’t exist…the reformation remember.
 
They wouldn’t be here today if the Catholic Church didn’t exist…the reformation remember.
If no catholic church then no protestant churches, no holy bible and no Christianity? That does seem logical…
 
Well said dcana! 👍

Ignatius - "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
If the Catholic Church had never existed! That is nonsensical. This is like saying, “What would plants be like if the sun never existed?” or “What would cars be like today if no one ever invented them?” If the Catholic Church never existed, then Jesus never came! God’s people would still be exclusively the Jews, waiting for their Messiah to come. The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church and His continuing presence on this earth until the end of time. It doesn’t matter if it ended up being called “The Way” Church or “The Messiah’s” Church or whatever else, instead of “The Catholic Church.” That Church is Jesus’ Church, the one He said He was founding and the one that He, in fact, founded. That Church wrote the Bible. The Gospels consist of the Catholic Matthew’s, the Catholic Mark’s, the Catholic Luke’s, and the Catholic John’s recording of the words and deeds of Jesus, and most of the rest of the NT consists of the Catholic St. Paul’s letters to the newly-founded Catholic churches in various parts of the world, his letters to the Catholic Bishops Timothy and Titus, and six letters written by the Catholic James, the Catholic John, and the Catholic Peter, who is the one whom Jesus founded His Church upon. The same Catholic Church who wrote the Scriptures, which are nothing more than (granted, very special) Church documents written for the edification and instruction of other Catholics, recognized these writings, and these alone, as her inspired writings when a few centuries later she collected them into our Church’s book which came to be known as “the Bible.” Why were dozens of other writings rejected? Because the same Church who collected the Scriptures, wrote the Scriptures. She recognized her own writings, that is, her own Holy Faith, and rejected the false gospels of the Gnostics and other groups, which she recognized as not coming from her, because these writings had things in them that were contrary to the Faith she was practicing at that time, and had always practiced. No Jesus, no Church. No Church, no Bible. Jesus’ sending of the Catholic Apostles out to preach the Gospel IS the Church. The only way Jesus could’ve come but that there be no Church is if he said to His Apostles, “What I have taught you is for you and you alone. Teach no one the things I have taught you. My teachings are to die with you.” Would we have had the Bible then? Of course not! Of course, this is utter nonsense! These Apostles were commanded to go into the world and to proclaim the Gospel, converting the world to Christ, which is identical with making these first hearers of the Gospel, and, subsequently, the rest of the world with them until the end of time, Catholic, that is, members of Christ’s mystical and “Universal” - that is, “Catholic” - body. Is the Gospel for all the world, and all who dwell therein? Did Jesus die for all men? Therefore, there is the Catholic Church, most aptly named. Whew!

Why do I care? Triumphalism? No, on the contrary. Because it is only there, through His Body, that the fullness of His Graces flow! Groups that separate themselves from this vine are like dead branches, good to be thrown into the fire and burned, if the break is big enough (e.g. the Arians), or, if the break is not complete, sick branches through which the sap trickles through (Protestantism). I only want others to have what Jesus Himself has given to His Church, which they have a right to possess, being Christians. And what has Jesus given to His Church? Himself, and, therefore, everything! Because His Church IS Himself, as it is His Body and His Bride. As St. Paul says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.”
 
Well it makes sense. No Jesus Christ, no Christianity. For the world to have Jesus Christ and no Christianity makes no sense. 😛
I believe after search of History and Biblical fact its simply impossible this could have turned out any other way.

For Jesus Christ not to turn out exactly as he did in History, could only have “one” possible reason, and thats because the Word never became Flesh. But it did.🤷

The study of Christ is amazing in itself. No theologian or historian would dispute the fact that Jesus was the single most important influential figure ever to walk the Earth. His actions words and miracles changed the course of History. And still are as we speak. Should any civil society chose to break their bondage, all they would have to do is embrace the words of this King. He refined the standard of Morality. Not only this but He has bought an unexplainable measure of purpose, peace and happiness to Billions of souls. Despite the chaos and resistance in the US and Civil world today His will is ever present, and I feel it just as Napolean did. Listen to what he said below.

Chance doesn’t even fit the equation of Jesus Christ or His Church. When one considers the first three-hundred years of His church witnessed every Bishop martyred aside from countless others. No occurrence in History or Physical science has been verified with a higher degree of statistical certainty than the fact that Jesus Christ is exactly who He claimed to be -the Messiah, Son of the Living God.

The fact that the world has been filled with know leaders of very powerfull armys such as Nero and all Romes emperors who btw destroyed Palestine less than 40-years after Jesus Christ death. Gives another statistical Truth of Christ.

Napoleon stated, “I know men; and I tell you that Jesus Christ is not a man. Superficial minds see a resemblance between Christ and the founders of empires, and the Gods of other religions. That resemblence does not exist…Everything in Christ astonishs me, His spirit overawes me, and His will confounds me. Between Him and whoever else in the world there is no comparison. He is truly a being by Himself. The nearer I approach , the more carefully I examine, everthing is above me! I seached in vain History to find the similar to Jesus Christ … Neither History, not Humanity, nor the ages, nor nature, offer me anything with which I am able to compare or explain it! Here everthing is extrodinary!”

And thats just Napoleon, there is a very long list of powerfull leaders, just as profound by Jesus Christ and His Church. To diminish the Truth of Jesus Christ and what His Apostles accomplished is to diminish the Truth in History of Jesus Christ. Any theologian or historian who attempts that fiasco ought ask for a refund on their degree’s.

I also completely agree with Billy Graham when he stated. “Should the USA be allowed to continue on its present path, God will have to make amends to Sodom and Gomorrah.”

The storm brewing today is the prophecy in Ezekiel 38. The USA as Christians need to figure out where they want to stand during that storm. This will not stand as it is. And that also is the hard-fast Truth. To think some fool will walk through Gods Kingdom, so the US can continue its abomination of a lifestyle is simply nonsense. You might as well suscribe to MAD magazine and believe that! 👍

God Bless, Gary
 
It is more like the Catholic Church was the “ONE” that “Corrected” the heresies. The heretical groups were never viewed as legitimate expressions of early Christianity.
Not by those who called themselves “catholic”…but the “heretical” groups viewed themselves as legitimate expressions of early Christianity with apostolic ties as well…
 
@dcana

wow…just wow. Me being a Protestant (Pentecostal) and leaving this sick branch and seeking the true source where this branch fell off. You have took all the words out my mouth that I am going to have to say to all my Protestant family and friends.
 
So the hypothetical scenario is: the Catholic church never existed, and therefore the Eastern Orthodox church never existed either. With the CC and the EOC removed from the pages of history, how would the Peshitta find its way into your hands today?

Also, the New Testament of the Peshitta, originally excluded certain disputed books such as 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude and Revelation.
As we have discussed on other occasions, you keep referring to “the Eastern Orthodox church” as if there were in fact a single ecclesiastical entity basically covering all non-Latinate Christianity from apostolic times forward and that somehow this one entity was under the auspices of the Pope in Rome. This doesn’t jibe with history, so it’s hard to understand what you’re referring to when you say “the Eastern Orthodox church” when there really is no such thing, per se.

Why hypothetically assume that just because Christianity didn’t exist in Rome that it would exist and thrive elsewhere? You yourself have observed before that several churches other than the Roman Church have legitimate apostolic roots with their own distinct scriptural canons.

Or if you’re saying that if hypothetically there never was any Christianity…?? How would we have the Bible?
 
As we have discussed on other occasions, you keep referring to “the Eastern Orthodox church” as if there were in fact a single ecclesiastical entity basically covering all non-Latinate Christianity from apostolic times forward and that somehow this one entity was under the auspices of the Pope in Rome. This doesn’t jibe with history, so it’s hard to understand what you’re referring to when you say “the Eastern Orthodox church” when there really is no such thing, per se.

Why hypothetically assume that just because Christianity didn’t exist in Rome that it would exist and thrive elsewhere? You yourself have observed before that several churches other than the Roman Church have legitimate apostolic roots with their own distinct scriptural canons.

Or if you’re saying that if hypothetically there never was any Christianity…?? How would we have the Bible?
Yes, I have drawn the conclusion that several eastern orthodox churches, other than the Roman Church, have legitimate apostolic roots…

We know that not a single protestant church stems from any of the EOC’s, for the reformers were protesting the actions of the catholic leaders, specifically.

If the catholic church, (with its headquarters in Rome) - had never existed (let’s remove the CC from the annals of history for the moment) - there wouldn’t have been a protestant reformation nor would there have been any protestant churches - correct? If not then could you please elaborate?
 
The history of the Russian EO or the Reformation is not a secret or a mystery. If you believe there is some mystical, secret hidden truth we all missed, please fill us in on it. Because thats the constant impression one would lead us to believe here. And we shall walk you step by step through the history of the EO.

Have you ever read the history of the Russian Orthodox Church through time, its re-unification with Rome, Council of Basel where the Immaculate Conception was proclaimed as truth then rejectic as doctrine by the Catholic Church till 400-years later, etc? Why do think the EO is so quiet about the Blessed Mother here? The Byzantine Church has the oldest veneration in recorded history to the Blessed Mother. And the ROC is the Byzantine Rite.

The seperation then became with Pope Pius, and where he chose the place a fork in the road with all Christianity. Rightfully so with divine intervention. And fatima pretty much proves his case. And the Protestant were singing Hymns to the Blessed Mother in 1906 in the Southern Baptist Church, and now have problem with this? I have a copy of the Hymn here btw. The problem we have is a simple fact called History, and there lies the Truth. If one should chose to ignore it, or not bother to research it, what does that make them but lazy and wrong?

I’m pretty sure we all know how communism and Stalin worked with “NO” seperation of church and state. No Bishop ever was in the ROC during communist Russia without approval of the KGB.

Who was it anyway that defeated Communism, Geez did that come from?

And we can talk about the Protestant Church if need be. Right up where its largest population is today…better known as the USA or Babylon to the rest of the world. The reformation was a blessing from God in many ways and it spread the Word. But we see what became of it? We have Christ scheduled to arrive May 21st 2011, Mormons with 3- different deitys being of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, the JWs, my oh my should we go on? Ultimately what the reformation did was become a balance to correct the Catholic Church in the error of Kingdom and Pope. The long travel from Doctrine by Protestants is another historical fact. One only need study Luther.

Lets not confuse History here now, because that gives us the Truth:shrug:

The fact that the CC and EO live different today means exactly what? The ROC is a Byzantine Rite Church? No different than those of different culture in the Catholic Church. No different than if I grew up in Africa and you in Alaska than a different culture would exist. 🤷

God Bless, Gary
 
Yes, I have drawn the conclusion that several eastern orthodox churches, other than the Roman Church, have legitimate apostolic roots…

We know that not a single protestant church stems from any of the EOC’s, for the reformers were protesting the actions of the catholic leaders, specifically.

If the catholic church, (with its headquarters in Rome) - had never existed (let’s remove the CC from the annals of history for the moment) - there wouldn’t have been a protestant reformation nor would there have been any protestant churches - correct? If not then could you please elaborate?
Yes, Protestantism is a distinctly very Western phenomenon that arose as a reform movement within the Roman church. So if, for example, a church had never been established in Rome, no there wouldn’t have been anyone to protest against it. But even if there hadn’t been a church in Rome, there would have still been churches elsewhere, as you observe.
 
If the Catholic and Orthodox Churches never existed, Protestantism would not exist, as, by definition, Protestantism is that heresy that broke from the Western (Catholic) Church. The European world would look totally different as well, and, to be honest, most of it would probably be Muslim. So, without the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, there would be no Bible, European (and, thus Western) culture would be unrecognizable, philosophy would be unintelligible to us, and Latin would deader.
I agree.

Protestantism is a product of western Europe, and western Europe was evangelized by the Roman Church. The people of western Europe received their belief in God and the bible via the Roman Church. Not only that, but the very manuscripts of scripture itself came to western Europe by means of the Roman Church.

So, without the Roman Catholic church, western Europe would be pagan, or most likely, Muslim.

I’ve always thought it odd that those who declare the Roman Catholic church to be a false church, to be the whore of Babylon, nevertheless take that false church’s holy book, and from it try to reconstruct the true church!
 
Yes, Protestantism is a distinctly very Western phenomenon that arose as a reform movement within the Roman church. So if, for example, a church had never been established in Rome, no there wouldn’t have been anyone to protest against it. But even if there hadn’t been a church in Rome, there would have still been churches elsewhere, as you observe.
Hey Dave, are you suggesting that in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th…9th, 10th centuries, prior to the great east - west schism, there were 2 distinct and separate churches: one called the eastern orthodox church and the other called the catholic church in the west? Or just one CC found universally, in the east, west, south and north?

Let’s assume that the there were 2 distinct and separate churches which means the EOC would still exist even if the CC never existed. However, there would be no PC’s unless there was a protestant reformation that took place in the east, which of course never happened? No catholic church no protestant churches - correct?
 
I agree.

Protestantism is a product of western Europe, and western Europe was evangelized by the Roman Church. The people of western Europe received their belief in God and the bible via the Roman Church. Not only that, but the very manuscripts of scripture itself came to western Europe by means of the Roman Church.

So, without the Roman Catholic church, western Europe would be pagan, or most likely, Muslim.

I’ve always thought it odd that those who declare the Roman Catholic church to be a false church, to be the whore of Babylon, nevertheless take that false church’s holy book, and from it try to reconstruct the true church!
Another thing I find rather odd is: if the holy spirit failed to guide the Catholic church, (born on Pentecost) - into all truth until the end of time, then why should anyone believe that the holy spirit is guiding one of the Protestant churches (all of which are a product of the 16th century reformation, at best) - into all truth until the end of time. :confused:
 
Hey Dave, are you suggesting that in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th…9th, 10th centuries, prior to the great east - west schism, there were 2 distinct and separate churches: one called the eastern orthodox church and the other called the catholic church in the west? Or just one CC found universally, in the east, west, south and north?

Let’s assume that the there were 2 distinct and separate churches which means the EOC would still exist even if the CC never existed. However, there would be no PC’s unless there was a protestant reformation that took place in the east, which of course never happened? No catholic church no protestant churches - correct?
Again, as we’ve discussed a number times, I’m not sure where you are getting this “2” business; you’re presenting a false choice. No, there clearly was not one single church before the so-called Great East-West Schism. There were a number churches from apostolic times forward, something which I thought we were super clear on from your comments above. The East-West schism only basically involved the Latinate and Byzantine churches–there are many churches labeled “Orthodox” but the orthodox churches are/were not one single institutional church in any sense–evidenced by things like differing biblical canons, liturgies and patriarchs.

I don’t think anything like the Protestant Reformation would have ever happened in the East because the power dynamics are completely different—and the same theological and political issues would have never arisen.
 
I am told by most non-Catholics that the Holy Bible was given to the world, exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and that the Catholic church was in no way divinely instrumental in the preservation and codification of sacred scripture, as the ecclesial guardian of sacred scripture via the guidance of the holy spirit.

If that is true then the answer to the following question must be a resounding yes:

If the Catholic church had never existed, (which would also remove the Eastern Orthodox church from the equation) - would those Christians in the protestant sphere (16th century - 21st century) - still have access to their holy Bibles, which eventually gave way to the protestant practice of sola scriptura - which is the protestants final authority vis-a-vis faith and morals? If yes then could you elaborate as to how…?
Well wouldn’t that contradict the very fact Jesus **FOUNDED **His Church? I do not recall Jesus promising the world ONLY the Bible?
 
I am told by most non-Catholics that the Holy Bible was given to the world, exclusively by the Holy Spirit, and that the Catholic church was in no way divinely instrumental in the preservation and codification of sacred scripture, as the ecclesial guardian of sacred scripture via the guidance of the holy spirit.

If that is true then the answer to the following question must be a resounding yes:

If the Catholic church had never existed, (which would also remove the Eastern Orthodox church from the equation) - would those Christians in the protestant sphere (16th century - 21st century) - still have access to their holy Bibles, which eventually gave way to the protestant practice of sola scriptura - which is the protestants final authority vis-a-vis faith and morals? If yes then could you elaborate as to how…?
It is awfully hard to put aside history and come up with a different scenario. …being that God does have this habit of knowing just what is to come into being. And it may be entirely possible that for the Roman Catholic Church (as a formal governing unit) it’s sole purpose was to fulfill God’s Will and gather together the Holy jewish Books and the writings that bare witness to Jesus and the letters of Paul and The Revelation of Jesus Christ to John.

We would have had Christianity; the church began on pentacost. The Holy Spirit was given unto those in the Upper Room. But the arguments and differences of opinions would still have occured.

Look at Thomas- prior to pentacost- the man walked with Jesus for 3 years and yet he doubted and argued the point of a living Christ. Not exactly a sola scripture guy

And then look at Peter and Paul- butting heads for years .

And Revelation shows how unruly many of the churches had gotten.

But back to the Op: God put together the right people at the right time in the right place so that what we call “The Holy Bible” could be put together. Just as perhaps the greek language was developed , because of its preciseness, that the deeper meaning of each word be known. Just as the printing press made it possible for mass production of the Word. Just as those who fought to have it put into all our everyday languages and not confined to latin.

Any Glory should be given to God for those who helped bring it into a reality should be humbled that God used them for His Divine Will.
 
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