If the Catholic Church made stuff up, as many non-Catholics claim....

[joe370]

Dave…

In historical Christianity, humans do not reach some sort of personal full enlightenment or Nirvana or Haqiqa–that would be Buddhism or Islam. (Not even the Pope.)

That is not what the CC teaches or believes.

I think in the next world we will gain full knowledge commensurate with our nature as humans–but we still won’t be God.

No one in Christianity, regardless of denomination, believes that they will one day be God.

The Holy Spirit leads, but we follow only imperfectly, primarily because of sin–and the unmitigated arrogance of trying to put an infinite God into our finite doctrinal boxes using the limitations of human language.

Covered this. Nothing is impossible for God, including His ineffable Godly ability to guide His church to all truth, until the end of time, in spite of sin.

I think we can get a sense of God’s word–but more so through the revelation of Jesus Christ than through the Bible alone.

I wish I could take my questions right to Jesus but I cannot, other than in prayer, and that is why Jesus left us with a teaching church and said to His fledgling church leaders, in His stead:

"*you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”*

I trust His church because Jesus is with His church, guiding His church, protecting His church from the gates of hell. Nothing is impossible for Jesus the Christ.

I would very strongly encourage you to study the Bible in-depth–this post has barely scratched the surface on one problem.

I read the bible every single day. Thanks again for the encouragement.

There are many others. As ONE brief example, the text of Jeremiah is 25% longer in the Septuagint than it is in the Roman Catholic Old Testament. The Dead Sea Scroll community (closest in time and geography to Jesus) was apparently using the longer text. Who has the “correct” text of Jeremiah? The Greek Orthodox? Or the Roman Catholics?

That’s for you to decide. You don’t trust either church so what does it matter to you? If the CC is the church of Matthew 16, John 14:16 and John 16:13, then the CC is correct. I asked you to possibly recommend a church that you do trust. What is your answer, and why?

First Samuel has a whole paragraph describing a man by the name of Nahash of Ammon that is omitted in the Septuagint and the Roman Catholic Bible, but is included in the Dead Sea Scrolls text and is known to Josephus. Who has the “correct” text of 1 Samuel? These issues go well, well beyond the simple “spelling errors” or “word order” that I see touted often here at CAF. Such study has helped me realize that we need to be very careful and humble when trying to make absolute claims. We only see things “dimly”

Humility is essential, and deference to Jesus’ church is scriptural, and yes, we all, only see dimly, just as Paul and the other apostles only saw dimly, but still managed to teach infallibly via the guidance of the HS, and they passed those teachings on to the next generation of leaders, such as Tim and Titus who were told to entrust said teachings to the next generation, who were all imperfect and fallible leaders just as the apostles were fallible and imperfect, and those Christians, back then, could trust their church leaders who lived 3 generations after the apostles, because the HS was still with them and guiding and safeguarding said truths, just as He does today, in Jesus’ church. The dead sea scrolls are not the word of God. I cannot locate them in the bible. We no longer possess an authentic Masoretic text or an authentic Septuagint. I trust that God guided His church to assemble His word.

Certainly doctrinal truth is not irrelevant, but we have to exercise a GREAT deal of humility about what we claim to be the “facts” concerning an infinite God.

Simple question: where can relevant doctrinal truth be found today? Let’s assume it cannot be found in the CC; based on what you have said about the CC, that is a given?

Otherwise we violate the first commandment and make our own human constructions of theology into an idol. So in some sense, we have to do the best we can and God will judge.

Seems reasonable.

 

[Javl]

Hello Dave:

I have been reading your posts with Joe and find them quite interesting. Might I ask where you get your information from? I ask because you have made comments and assertions about Catholicism and the Catholic Church which are off base. Are you a follower/student of LLoraine Boetner or Jack Chick?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Hello Dave:

I have been reading your posts with Joe and find them quite interesting. Might I ask where you get your information from? I ask because you have made comments and assertions about Catholicism and the Catholic Church which are off base. Are you a follower/student of LLoraine Boetner or Jack Chick?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

LOL, no. It’s all only my own perspective. Which statement(s) specifically do you disagree with?