If the Church changes its view on abortion.

[Murmurs]

I don’t accept (like everyone else!) the premise of the question.

It is I suppose hypothetically (very hypothetically!) possible to imagine a situation wherein the Church decides after an intense period of heartache (the current forthcoming Synod is nowhere near what it would take), that in some, extremely limited situations, the awfulness of abortion is close to being balanced by the greater or equal good of a particular set of circumstances (an “only way to save the life of the mother” situation for instance).

Given that the Church already teaches that while always to be a last-resort, the death penalty is sometimes potentially legitimately justifiable (though never desirable), it is clear that there are already circumstances where the taking of life to protect another life, is allowable. If any kind of “change” (or rather “development”) of this dogma was to take place, I imagine this is the kind of very limited scope it would have.

However even this wouldn’t remotely be the Church taking a “pro-choice” position, never mind articulating the idea that abortion is somehow “good” - just having a more developed and nuanced understanding of how we must protect human life. In this set of circumstances I suppose I (and many) could agree. Would this make any of us actually pro-choice, though? No.

I especially think coming literally one day after the Holy Father addressed the United Nations, and 2 days after he addressed the United States Congress, in which he (among many other equally important things) stressed the sacredness of life at every stage of its existence, the idea of this kind of ‘change’ is pretty unlikely to say the least.

 

[Church_Militant]

So if the Vatican decides one day that contraception and abortion are actually good, would you to become pro-choice?

Which ain’t gonna happen…

This hypothetical question is a little like asking if the Vatican decides one day that Protestantism is right and Catholicism is wrong. IOW, it ain’t gonna happen.

But at the upcoming Synod meltzer, many dogmatic views will be challenged and changed.

Bunkum! O ye of little faith! How quick you are to assume the worst with an hypothetical that is not possible, no matter what anyone says…

Perhaps contraception, but I doubt the Church’s teaching on abortion will be challenged.

Nope…not even that. An intrinsic evil cannot be changed into a good.

Again…Not Gonna Happen…

 

[meltzerboy]

Perhaps your dreaming, She won’t change either!!! God Bless, Memaw

Ultimately not changed, but perhaps contraception may be discussed with regard to certain instances. Or perhaps not.

 

[Church_Militant]

Ultimately not changed, but perhaps contraception may be discussed with regard to certain instances. Or perhaps not.

Discussion is not the same as changing teaching. One can discuss the use of nuclear weapons without ever dropping said bomb. It is just that…discussion…and it can help priests and pastors to better minister to those who have been caught up in and suffered from some sins, but it does not indicate any change in Catholic teaching or doctrines on faith and morals.

 

[openmind77]

So if the Vatican decides one day that contraception and abortion are actually good, would you to become pro-choice?

According to surveys a vast majority of Catholics use contraceptives, so there is a good chance that the Church will some day agree that it is OK to use them,

As far as abortion is concerned, I doubt if there is anybody on earth who thinks that abortion is ‘good’ so why would the Church ever think so?

 

[1ke]

According to surveys a vast majority of Catholics use contraceptives, so there is a good chance that the Church will some day agree that it is OK to use them,

I know this is difficult for a Hindu to understand. But objective truth exists, and it does not change. It does not matter how many people commit a specific sin, it can never be anything other than what it is: a grave evil.

The deposit of faith is what it is, because it is divinely revealed. It is the truth, and nothing can ever make it “not” the truth.

As far as abortion is concerned, I doubt if there is anybody on earth who thinks that abortion is ‘good’ so why would the Church ever think so?

There are millions of people who believe abortion is good.

You still miss the point. it doesn’t matter how many people do an action, or believe whatever they believe. The truth remains, unchangeable.

 

[1ke]

So if the Vatican decides one day that contraception and abortion are actually good, would you to become pro-choice?

You state you are a Catholic in your profile. So, please explain why you believe these two doctrines of the Church can change. in the first place.

It is incumbent on you to prove that doctrines **can **change first before speculating on what happens when they do change.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

So if the Vatican decides one day that contraception and abortion are actually good, would you to become pro-choice?

Aside from the fact that this is literally impossible, if the Church said that abortion & contraception were not sinful I would maintain my current beliefs and not become pro-choice or advocate for contraception.

 

[JohnGerard]

I had a chat with a pro choice person. She said she is pro choice but not pro abortion. Just like she is vegetarian and thinks everyone should be vegetarian for many reasons but she thinks they should have the choice and it not be legislated.

Hey Michael,

So I wonder if the person you were talking to would also think things like:

1. Just like I don’t believe in stealing cars, but people should have that choice. It shouldn’t be legislated.
2. Just like I don’t believe in murder, but people should have that choice. It shouldn’t be legislated.
3. Just like I don’t believe in child abuse, but people should have that choice…
4. Just like I don’t believe in speeding, but people should have that choice…
5. Just like I don’t believe in slavery, but people should have that choice…

etc.

Randy Alcorn wrote a fabulous book called “Prolife Answers to ProChoice Arguments”. In it he states (and explains why) : “To be pro choice about abortion is to be pro abortion.”

Sorry if I’ve left the topic of the OP.

But then I said what about the choice of the child within the woman. She is does not have the choice to terminate its life after birth, why before? Doesn’t that life also have rights to be protected. Shouldn’t we protect those most vulnerable?

I think she is thinking about it.

Nice job right there!

 

[PeteZ28]

I don’t accept (like everyone else!) the premise of the question.

Given that the Church already teaches that while always to be a last-resort, the death penalty is sometimes potentially legitimately justifiable (though never desirable), it is clear that there are already circumstances where the taking of life to protect another life, is allowable. If any kind of “change” (or rather “development”) of this dogma was to take place, I imagine this is the kind of very limited scope it would have.

However even this wouldn’t remotely be the Church taking a “pro-choice” position, never mind articulating the idea that abortion is somehow “good” - just having a more developed and nuanced understanding of how we must protect human life. In this set of circumstances I suppose I (and many) could agree. Would this make any of us actually pro-choice, though? No.

The Church has always taught that the death penalty is acceptable under the right circumstances, generally when there is no other recourse to protect the safety of others. In today’s American society, with modern prisons and availability of mental health care, the death penalty is not necessary.

The Church has always taught that abortion is forbidden and that innocent unborn life is precious and is to be protected. The direct and intentional abortion has always been, and always will be, an offense against God.

The Church has always taught and will always teach that contraception is sinful and forbidden. The separation of sexual acts from procreation has been forbidden since Onan.

It helps to understand the “why” and not just the “what” of the Church’s position on abortion and contraception, and human life in general. I suggest you read the encyclical “Humanae Vitae”, Pope Paul VI does a great job of not only defining the position of the Church on human life, but explains the reasons.

When you understand why the Church has these positions, I think you’ll better understand why those positions cannot be changed.

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html

 

[PeteZ28]

According to surveys a vast majority of Catholics use contraceptives, so there is a good chance that the Church will some day agree that it is OK to use them,

As far as abortion is concerned, I doubt if there is anybody on earth who thinks that abortion is ‘good’ so why would the Church ever think so?

No, it will not. The Catholic Church is not a democracy, although the secular media often wishes it is, and portrays it as such. When the majority of Catholics do the wrong thing, the Church does it’s best to bring them back into alignment with Church, not the other way around.

And I assure you, there are plenty of people who think abortion is “good”.

 

[Corki]

But at the upcoming Synod meltzer, many dogmatic views will be challenged and changed.

**The synod can’t change anything. **It is not a governing body. It is a forum for discussion and will present the results of that discussion, which may include recommendations, to the Pope.

But even within that construct of discussion, its recommendations will regarding discipline - not doctrine and certainly not dogma.

 

[openmind77]

I know this is difficult for a Hindu to understand. But objective truth exists, and it does not change. It does not matter how many people commit a specific sin, it can never be anything other than what it is: a grave evil.

The deposit of faith is what it is, because it is divinely revealed. It is the truth, and nothing can ever make it “not” the truth.

There are millions of people who believe abortion is good.

You still miss the point. it doesn’t matter how many people do an action, or believe whatever they believe. The truth remains, unchangeable.

I don’t think 90% of woman to will do something if it were really truly evil (see guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html), so it may not as true as you believe.

I don’t know a single person who thinks abortion is ‘good’.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

**The synod can’t change anything. **It is not a governing body. It is a forum for discussion and will present the results of that discussion, which may include recommendations, to the Pope.

But even within that construct of discussion, its recommendations will regarding discipline - not doctrine and certainly not dogma.

That’s right. The Holy Father is the one who will make the final decisions regarding disciplines. It is beyond the power of the Holy Father to alter dogma as dogma is infallible. Neither can doctrine be changed because it, too, is infallible. If the Church changes its teachings, then essentially it will be saying that it has lied about infallibility for 2000 years.

 

[PeteZ28]

I don’t think 90% of woman to will do something if it were really truly evil

And 100% of the population has sinned. That means 100% of the population has lied, cheated, stolen, coveted, fornicated, blasphemed, or otherwise sinned against God and their fellow man.

Does that mean that lying, cheating, stealing, coveting, fornicating, blaspheming and such are not truly evil?

We all sin, just because one sin is particularly popular or even accepted by society does not negate is sinfulness.

 

[PeteZ28]

Neither can doctrine be changed because it, too, is infallible. If the Church changes its teachings, then essentially it will be saying that it has lied about infallibility for 2000 years.

Exactly.

 

[openmind77]

And 100% of the population has sinned. That means 100% of the population has lied, cheated, stolen, coveted, fornicated, blasphemed, or otherwise sinned against God and their fellow man.

Does that mean that lying, cheating, stealing, coveting, fornicating, blaspheming and such are not truly evil?

We all sin, just because one sin is particularly popular or even accepted by society does not negate is sinfulness.

I don’t know where you are from. but where I am (in California) 100% of population does not lie, cheat and steal on a regular basis(not even 50% of the population) , it is only occasional and under unusual circumstances.

On the other hand, the use of contraceptives for a large majority of women of child bearing age is pretty constant and regular. Someday soon (pretty soon I think), the Church will say it is OK.

 

[DavidFilmer]

But at the upcoming Synod meltzer, many dogmatic views will be challenged and changed.

This is not an Ecumenical Council. It’s a synod (though a big one). It cannot define doctrine.

And the topic of this synod (every such synod has a topic) is the vocation of the family in the Church and the world. There will be an agenda. They won’t veer off into other topics.

 

[DavidFilmer]

IIf the Church were to change her dogma regarding feticide, would you cease being Christian? Would you become agnostic or atheist?

I would become Orthodox.

But it ain’t gonna happen.

But the cool thing about being Catholic is that we KNOW it isn’t gonna happen. Protestants have no idea what sort of wacky things their churches might do. At one time, every protestant church ALSO prohibited artificial birth control (the Episcopal Church was the first to permit it). We have female Anglican “bishops” and gay weddings. More and more protestant churches are turning a blind eye to abortion.

 

[truetofaith]

Aside from the fact that this is literally impossible, if the Church said that abortion & contraception were not sinful I would maintain my current beliefs and not become pro-choice or advocate for contraception.

I was going to say the same thing.