If the church was in hiding ...

[ParkerD]

I am an adult person. When speaking to an adult, you don’t just assume he won’t understand you. You just talk what you want to talk. If you find that he doesn’t understand, then (only then) you adjust your language to his level of understanding. But no, the first thing you do is to first of all underestimate the level of understanding of the other person, thereby insulting his intelligence.

No, it is the other way round. It was up to you to talk freely, using the terms you are familiar with. And if you find that I don’t understand, you adjust.

placido

Sorry. “Translated being” is a fairly complicated term.

 

[ParkerD]

What about the fact that I did not mention the Catholic church? How come you include the Catholic Church in your “resonable” conclusion?
It seems you can’t stop making (wrong) assumptions.

placido

Placido,
Whatever your point is, you win. I have been honest with you about my beliefs, about trying to answer your questions, and about trying to understand where you were coming from with your comments. Bye.

 

[placido]

Sorry. “Translated being” is a fairly complicated term.

Parker, being more intelligent, understands a term that is “fairly complicated” for us the least intelligent …
Parker, that is unfair.

placido

 

[placido]

Placido,
Whatever your point is, you win. I have been honest with you about my beliefs, about trying to answer your questions, and about trying to understand where you were coming from with your comments. Bye.

Bye!

placido

 

[placido]

Who? The Holy Spirit does. Christ does. They have that authority. It is Their message–it is not the Catholic church’s message, although an institution may pretend to “own” the message.

Yes, it is not the LDS Church’s message, although they pretend to “own” the message, apparently after receiving it from Peter, John and James though Joseph Smith.

placido

 

[placido]

The Catholic Church compiled the bible, in a council of over 400 bishops, in the 4th century. The Church was not in hiding, except from persecution from the Romans and the Jews, until Constantine legalised the faith. The whole concept of a faithful remnant who became the baptist is not history, it is fantasy. Where are the writings of the early baptist fathers?

Parker believes the church was withdrawn from the earth about the time John wrote Revelation and was only restored in June 1829. He grounds his belief in a skewed interpretation of Daniel and Revelation, but he has no words to explain how come the prosecution of the saints continued up to Constantine in the fourth century while there was supposed to be no saints on earth.
He also seems to think of the church apart from believers because, on one the hand he says there was “some” believers on earth throughtout history (including apostle John who is “no longer mortal”), but on the other hand he says the church was absent from the earth for a long time. You can see Parker suffers from self-induced confusion.

placido

 

[fbl9]

Hi Parker thanks for your reply.

Yes in all honesty you should have used the proper term “translated beings” but now can you explain the difference between a translated being and immortallity?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker believes the church was withdrawn from the earth about the time John wrote Revelation and was only restored in June 1829. He grounds his belief in a skewed interpretation of Daniel and Revelation, but he has no words to explain how come the prosecution of the saints continued up to Constantine in the fourth century while there was supposed to be no saints on earth.
He also seems to think of the church apart from believers because, on one the hand he says there was “some” believers on earth throughtout history (including apostle John who is “no longer mortal”), but on the other hand he says the church was absent from the earth for a long time. You can see Parker suffers from self-induced confusion.

placido

Placido,
I realize that once again it may be a point of distinction that is difficult to differentiate for someone who is used to the word “church” meaning the institution established by Christ, and the people who join that institution. A person can be a believer in Christ and yet still not belong to the institution established by Christ. If it was no longer purely established, then that person was doing the best they could do, and yes, there was persecution of righteous and good people after the deaths of the apostles and that was a bad thing and those people will have all the truths of the gospel in eternity.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker thanks for your reply.

Yes in all honesty you should have used the proper term “translated beings” but now can you explain the difference between a translated being and immortallity?

Hi, FBL9,
A “translated being” has had a “change wrought upon their body, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world…insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.”

“…they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not. They will also be among the Jews (the house of Israel descendants), and the Jews shall know them not.”

“…they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.”

The reason they became a translated being is because of their individual righteousness (such as John) and their desire to remain on the earth and bring souls unto Christ. They could give words of comfort and strength and guidance to people in remote parts of the world who were seeking Christ or seeking to do good things and who had a pure heart, during the historical time period after they lived as mortals. They do it quietly among people whom they know they can trust.

The difference between their condition and an immortal being is that their body did not become a resurrected body, so it would still need to be changed from being a translated body to being a resurrected body, and this will happen in the “twinkling of an eye” as stated by the apostle Paul when he said, “Behold, I shew you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

 

[wisdomseeker]

Placido,
I realize that once again it may be a point of distinction that is difficult to differentiate for someone who is used to the word “church” meaning the institution established by Christ, and the people who join that institution. A person can be a believer in Christ and yet still not belong to the institution established by Christ. If it was no longer purely established, then that person was doing the best they could do, and yes, there was persecution of righteous and good people after the deaths of the apostles and that was a bad thing and those people will have all the truths of the gospel in eternity.

Jesus gave us all the Truths of the Gospel. whether you believe the CC or not. just because you dont believe, it does not mean it is not here. the CC has the history. but you chose to believe whatever Joseph Smith told you. you are in disobedience to Christ and that is why you cannot see that.

 

[ParkerD]

Jesus gave us all the Truths of the Gospel. whether you believe the CC or not. just because you dont believe, it does not mean it is not here. the CC has the history. but you chose to believe whatever Joseph Smith told you. you are in disobedience to Christ and that is why you cannot see that.

Wisdom Seeker,
Jesus did give all the Truths of the Gospel, including the teachings, ordinances, covenants and organization that would keep the doctrines pure. The CC has a history, but it does not have the pure teachings, nor the pure ordinances, nor the pure covenants, nor the pure organization that would keep the doctrines pure. If you would like me to make the specific comparisons, at this point I will even though anyone can find them by reading the Bible and comparing it with the CC.

I believe the Holy Spirit and Christ, and am absolutely sure of Their guidance in my life. So although I am imperfect and certainly acknowledge that, your final sentence only says to me that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdom Seeker,
Jesus did give all the Truths of the Gospel, including the teachings, ordinances, covenants and organization that would keep the doctrines pure. The CC has a history, but it does not have the pure teachings, nor the pure ordinances, nor the pure covenants, nor the pure organization that would keep the doctrines pure. If you would like me to make the specific comparisons, at this point I will even though anyone can find them by reading the Bible and comparing it with the CC.

I believe the Holy Spirit and Christ, and am absolutely sure of Their guidance in my life. So although I am imperfect and certainly acknowledge that, your final sentence only says to me that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

i dont know what i am talking about but you do. i see. you have the Truth but i dont.

let get this straight. the mormon church have the Truth of the Gospel but not the CC. explain please.

 

[ParkerD]

i dont know what i am talking about but you do. i see. you have the Truth but i dont.

let get this straight. the mormon church have the Truth of the Gospel but not the CC. explain please.

Wisdom Seeker,
The following are aspects of the True, pure gospel taught by Christ:

1. Christ is the head of the church, always. He guides the church by revelation through the Holy Spirit, always. Revelation is contingent upon personal righteousness, always. The Holy Spirit can be lost by a leader who is unrighteous, always. A church leader in the pure church of Christ will have a pure testimony of Jesus that is the spirit of prophecy, always. The pure church of Christ will be completely comfortable with the idea of there being prophets and continuing revelation on the earth.
2. People who join the pure church established by Christ will listen, gain faith and belief, repent of their sins, then desire to be baptized by immersion in water to enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. They will then desire and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). These steps will be in close succession, not years removed from each other. The Holy Spirit will sanctify their hearts and guide their life and bring them the “fruits of the Spirit” including love, kindness, peace, forgiving hearts, patience, longsuffering, meekness, and greater faith.
3. People who join the pure church established by Christ will be uncomfortable with images and outward appearances of “pageantry” that can be “ends in themselves” and detract from loving God with all of one’s heart or from focusing on personal belief in Christ as a living, loving Savior and Redeemer. There will be no “graven images” in the pure church established by Christ.
4. People who join the pure church established by Christ will be fully familiar with being able to repent of their sins through personal prayer, without needing to see a priest unless their sin was a grievous sin such as adultery.
5. People who join the pure church established by Christ will act like the Good Samaritan when it comes to how they treat the stranger in their midst, and how they treat the poor and the needy. They will have love as the centermost characteristic of their personal life.
6. People who join the pure church established by Christ will recognize that families are central to God’s plan for His children, and will not “put asunder” what “God hath joined together”, either in this world or in the world to come.
7. People who join the pure church established by Christ will want to be like Him, and will know that He wants them to be like Him and that He has provided a way that they can become like Him. It is His way, not their way. His way is the only way.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdom Seeker,
The following are aspects of the True, pure gospel taught by Christ:

1. Christ is the head of the church, always. He guides the church by revelation through the Holy Spirit, always. Revelation is contingent upon personal righteousness, always. The Holy Spirit can be lost by a leader who is unrighteous, always. A church leader in the pure church of Christ will have a pure testimony of Jesus that is the spirit of prophecy, always. The pure church of Christ will be completely comfortable with the idea of there being prophets and continuing revelation on the earth.
2. People who join the pure church established by Christ will listen, gain faith and belief, repent of their sins, then desire to be baptized by immersion in water to enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. They will then desire and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). These steps will be in close succession, not years removed from each other. The Holy Spirit will sanctify their hearts and guide their life and bring them the “fruits of the Spirit” including love, kindness, peace, forgiving hearts, patience, longsuffering, meekness, and greater faith.
3. People who join the pure church established by Christ will be uncomfortable with images and outward appearances of “pageantry” that can be “ends in themselves” and detract from loving God with all of one’s heart or from focusing on personal belief in Christ as a living, loving Savior and Redeemer. There will be no “graven images” in the pure church established by Christ.
4. People who join the pure church established by Christ will be fully familiar with being able to repent of their sins through personal prayer, without needing to see a priest unless their sin was a grievous sin such as adultery.
5. People who join the pure church established by Christ will act like the Good Samaritan when it comes to how they treat the stranger in their midst, and how they treat the poor and the needy. They will have love as the centermost characteristic of their personal life.
6. People who join the pure church established by Christ will recognize that families are central to God’s plan for His children, and will not “put asunder” what “God hath joined together”, either in this world or in the world to come.
7. People who join the pure church established by Christ will want to be like Him, and will know that He wants them to be like Him and that He has provided a way that they can become like Him. It is His way, not their way. His way is the only way.

Parker, i think you just built your own church. it is pure based on what you were tought and what you believe.

keep in mind Jesus did build a Church and He promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it. there is a reason why Jesus promised this. it is because the devil and many people woud try. if you have no sinners in your church it is because it is not the True Church. if your church does not resemble the Jews, then it is not the True Church. Jesus never said that everyone in His Church would be perfect and would never sin. Jesus continue to call people to His Church, it is up to you to accept or reject. the Church never went into apostasy like you have been implying here all along. the Church has many Saints and also many sinners. Jesus says: let the weed grow together with the wheat. the separation comes in the end and not before. there is One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Jesus is the One who keeps His Church going, we Catholics never claimed to be perfect. protestants just like you, look at the sins of some Catholics and immediately judge and condemn the CC, then you go on to build your onw churches, churches based solely on making people look perfectly good. but in the end none of you are good. all come to light. at least as Catholics we dont claim to be good. we are just content that we are being safeguarded in His Church. if we sin, we know that He made a provision for us through the priesthood.

i cant discuss every issue with you because you cannot understand them. “Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all things will be added to it.”

“Unless you eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, you have no life in you.” SACRED EUCHARISTIA.

 

[ParkerD]

Wisdom Seeker,
The following are aspects of the True, pure gospel taught by Christ:

1. Christ is the head of the church, always. (Ephesians 2:20) He guides the church by revelation through the Holy Spirit, always. (Galatians 1:10-12) Revelation is contingent upon personal righteousness, always. (Galatians 5:16-25) The Holy Spirit can be lost by a leader who is unrighteous, always. (Galatians 6:5-8) A church leader in the pure church of Christ will have a pure testimony of Jesus that is the spirit of prophecy, always. (Revelation 19:10) The pure church of Christ will be completely comfortable with the idea of there being prophets and continuing revelation on the earth. (Acts 15:32; Revelation 14:6)
2. People who join the pure church established by Christ will listen, gain faith and belief, repent of their sins, then desire to be baptized by immersion in water to enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. They will then desire and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). (Acts 2:37-38; John 3:3-8) These steps will be in close succession, not years removed from each other. The Holy Spirit will sanctify their hearts (1 Peter 1:2) and guide their life and bring them the “fruits of the Spirit” including love, kindness, peace, forgiving hearts, patience, longsuffering, meekness, and greater faith. (Galatians 5:22-23)
3. People who join the pure church established by Christ will be uncomfortable with images and outward appearances of “pageantry” that can be “ends in themselves” and detract from loving God with all of one’s heart or from focusing on personal belief in Christ as a living, loving Savior and Redeemer. There will be no “graven images” in the pure church established by Christ. (Exodus 20:3-5; Deuteronomy 4:28)
4. People who join the pure church established by Christ will be fully familiar with being able to repent of their sins through personal prayer, without needing to see a priest unless their sin was a grievous sin such as adultery. (Acts 3:19; Romans 14:11)
5. People who join the pure church established by Christ will act like the Good Samaritan when it comes to how they treat the stranger in their midst, and how they treat the poor and the needy. They will have love as the centermost characteristic of their personal life.
6. People who join the pure church established by Christ will recognize that families are central to God’s plan for His children, and will not “put asunder” what “God hath joined together”, either in this world or in the world to come. (Matthew 19:6)
7. People who join the pure church established by Christ will want to be like Him, and will know that He wants them to be like Him and that He has provided a way that they can become like Him. It is His way, not their way. His way is the only way. (Matthew 5:48; John 1:12; John 14:6; Revelation 21:7)

Wisdom Seeker,
I suggest you seek the wisdom found in the Bible itself. All these truths are plainly manifest.

 

[placido]

Placido,
I realize that once again it may be a point of distinction that is difficult to differentiate for someone who is used to the word “church” meaning the institution established by Christ, and the people who join that institution.

Please take note that I don’t consider the church merely as an institution. I consider the Church as ekklesia (ecclesia), the body of the faithful, the society of the “called out ones”; they are in the world but not of the world.
To refer to Christ’s Church as merely an institution may be misleading.

A person can be a believer in Christ and yet still not belong to the institution established by Christ.

It is not entirely correct to say Christ established an institution, rather He instituted a community of believers and His wish is that all believers should be in that community (John 10:16).
Okay, one can be a “believer” and remain outside, but that is not what Christ wants. He wants all to be in one fold, under one shepherd.
As an example, the demons also believe Jesus is the Christ, yet they remain outside.

If it was no longer purely established, then that person was doing the best they could do, and yes, there was persecution of righteous and good people after the deaths of the apostles and that was a bad thing and those people will have all the truths of the gospel in eternity.

Now, it is time to solve this problem once and for all:
Do you believe that while the church was “in hiding” or in the “wilderness” (whatever term you prefer) there was at least two or three believers in the world? If yes, were they able to come together and worship God?

placido

 

[placido]

Hi, FBL9,
A “translated being” has had a “change wrought upon their body, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world…insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.”

It sounds they are better than Jesus who, while in this world, could suffer pain and sorrow and was tempted …
If that is what the world could do to Christ, why can the world no do the same to these strange “translated beings” if they are really in the world?

The reason they became a translated being is because of their individual righteousness (such as John) and their desire to remain on the earth and bring souls unto Christ.

The problem with that is that, according to your theory, from approximately 100 AD to June 1829 those “translated beings” were as good as dead.

They could give words of comfort and strength and guidance to people in remote parts of the world who were seeking Christ or seeking to do good things and who had a pure heart, during the historical time period after they lived as mortals. They do it quietly among people whom they know they can trust.

Oh really? You mean they were on earth while the church was absent from the earth?

Jesus did give all the Truths of the Gospel, including the teachings, ordinances, covenants and organization that would keep the doctrines pure.

Sounds weird. I mean, they were on earth while the church was absent; they had all the truths of the Gospel, “including the teachings, ordinances, covenants and organization that would keep the doctrines pure” yet they failed to keep “the doctrine pure”, necessitating a restoration by Joseph Smith.

placido

 

[placido]

The CC has a history, but it does not have the pure teachings, nor the pure ordinances, nor the pure covenants, nor the pure organization that would keep the doctrines pure.

That is not only the easiest claim to make, that is also the easiest claim to refute.

If you would like me to make the specific comparisons, at this point I will even though anyone can find them by reading the Bible and comparing it with the CC.

That would be interesting and I look forward to seeing your list.

placido

 

[placido]

The following are aspects of the True, pure gospel taught by Christ:

1. Christ is the head of the church, always. He guides the church by revelation through the Holy Spirit, always.

True.

Revelation is contingent upon personal righteousness, always.

False.

The Holy Spirit can be lost by a leader who is unrighteous, always.

False. The Holy Spirit guides the church (like you rightly stated above) regardless of the personal righteousness of individual leaders.

A church leader in the pure church of Christ will have a pure testimony of Jesus that is the spirit of prophecy, always.
The pure church of Christ will be completely comfortable with the idea of there being prophets and continuing revelation on the earth.

False. Paul said prophecies would cease (I Corinthians 13:8).
The rest of what you said was merely a cocktail of wishful thinking mixed with a good dose of fiction propagated by those who (for whatever reason) needed an excuse to usurp church authority for themselves.

placido

 

[ParkerD]

Now, it is time to solve this problem once and for all:
Do you believe that while the church was “in hiding” or in the “wilderness” (whatever term you prefer) there was at least two or three believers in the world? If yes, were they able to come together and worship God?

placido

Yes, I do believe both of those things happened many times.