If the creation of this world is not logically consistent with a loving act, then why do we bring children in to this world?

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IWantGod said:
Tell that to the billions of people who believe in God. If God exist then we have eternal bliss to look forward to and our lives and actions really do mean something in the grand scene of things.
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And that’s counteracted by the billions who have eternal suffering to look forward to.
IWantGod said:
Metaphysical naturalism does mean there is no objective purpose or meaning to life. Of course we can make up fantasies in our heads and try to apply them to reality. But i would prefer the real thing.
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Rather, you would prefer someone else make them up for you.
 
JapaneseKappa said:
And that’s counteracted by the billions who have eternal suffering to look forward to…
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If its a choice to reject love itself, than i can only assume that suffering is a natural consequence of being outside of love. If you are outside of love itself i don’t imagine you are going to be happy for all eternity.
Rather, you would prefer someone else make them up for you.
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I wouldn’t.

Whether or not my belief is somebody else’s make-belief is besides the point and irrelevant to my argument.

I wouldn’t want to be born in a world like this if God didn’t exist. I don’t think any rational person would. Its objectively pointless and meaningless. There’s all manner of potential suffering. Happiness is not guaranteed and you are going to cease to exist anyway, and even worse you are going to see all your loved ones cease to exist before you!

You might be okay with it, but why would you force that on another living person?

Slipping and sliding…
 
IWantGod said:
Whether or not my belief is somebody else’s make-belief is besides the point and irrelevant to my argument.
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So it doesn’t matter if your belief about your purpose or meaning is in line with God’s, so long as God just exists?
 
JapaneseKappa said:
What makes you think that the other person would automatically not be okay with it?
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For one they did not ask for it, so they are going to have to live with it whether there okay with it or not and they have no eternal bliss to look forward to. and nobody wants to suffer and cease to exist. They don’t even want to possibility of it, so why make that choice for them.
 
IWantGod said:
I don’t get it.
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I said that you preferred that someone else (i.e. God) tells you what your purpose and meaning were. You said that it didn’t matter what anyone else thought about your purpose and meaning.
 
IWantGod said:
I wouldn’t want to be born in a world like this if God didn’t exist. I don’t think any rational person would. Its objectively pointless and meaningless.
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It’s your belief in God that gives it reason and meaning. But the world wouldn’t change if you lost your belief. Only you.

You would be the one renting your garments and wailing that it’s all pointless and meaningless. While the rest of us carry on raising kids, learning Spanish, drinking beer, having sex, walking the dog, having friends over, going for a surf and wondering ‘what on earth is the matter with that guy over there? Someone should help.’
 
Bradski said:
It’s your belief in God that gives it reason and meaning. But the world wouldn’t change if you lost your belief. Only you.

You would be the one renting your garments and wailing that it’s all pointless and meaningless. While the rest of us carry on raising kids, learning Spanish, drinking beer, having sex, walking the dog, having friends over, going for a surf and wondering ‘what on earth is the matter with that guy over there? Someone should help.’
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And there would still be people suffering and people would still have to face their mortality.

Yes, and you would all continue bringing children into the world without a second thought i’m sure. Is your ability to feel absolutely no concern over what it would really mean to bring somebody into this world a reflection of what objective reality is like, or is it just an inference to the fact that people can quite happily live in a fantasy chemically induced or otherwise…

I think the latter. I think allot of people don’t pay attention to what reality actually is outside of their imagination. And i think a lot of atheists think just like there really is a God, they just don’t realize it.
 
IWantGod said:
Yes, and you would all continue bringing children into the world without a second thought i’m sure. Is your ability to feel absolutely no concern over what it would really means to bring somebody into this world a reflection of what objective reality is like, or is it just an inference to the fact that people can quite happily live in a fantasy chemically induced or otherwise…

I think the latter. I think allot of people don’t pay attention to what reality actually is outside of their imagination.
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As it turns out, I am one of luckiest people who have ever lived. And I mean that quite literally. I wasn’t exactly born into riches - far from it in fact. But I was born in a place and at a time where there was reasonable health care, a reasonable standard of living, even for the working class, good education for all and a time slot where I have missed (not intentionally) all the major and minor conflicts in the world. In fact, I never even saw a real gun until I was in my thirties.

By the time I was married my wife an I were quite reasonably well off and bringing children into the world was a no brainer. Both kids have had even more advantages than I had and everyone is healthy and happy.

If I had been born in the Sudan, or in the slums of Delhi, or the barrios of Rio or the projects in Detroit, or during the Second World War for example, then having kids would not have sounded like a very good idea. Whatndo you think? Contraception the way to go in those cases?

So no. Despite my ocassional chemically induced departure from reality (generally a few beers, a decent malt and a good red), some of us are blissfully aware of what we have, eternally greatfull for it and have (had) no problems in increasing this particular continent’s population.
 
Bradski said:
As it turns out, I am one of luckiest people who have ever lived. And I mean that quite literally. I wasn’t exactly born into riches - far from it in fact. But I was born in a place and at a time where there was reasonable health care, a reasonable standard of living, even for the working class, good education for all and a time slot where I have missed (not intentionally) all the major and minor conflicts in the world. In fact, I never even saw a real gun until I was in my thirties.

By the time I was married my wife an I were quite reasonably well off and bringing children into the world was a no brainer. Both kids have had even more advantages than I had and everyone is healthy and happy.

If I had been born in the Sudan, or in the slums of Delhi, or the barrios of Rio or the projects in Detroit, or during the Second World War for example, then having kids would not have sounded like a very good idea. Whatndo you think? Contraception the way to go in those cases?

So no. Despite my ocassional chemically induced departure from reality (generally a few beers, a decent malt and a good red), some of us are blissfully aware of what we have, eternally greatfull for it and have (had) no problems in increasing this particular continent’s population.
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Its great now kids but your gonna cease to exist, and you may live to see the day when your parents cease to exist.

I’m sorry but its absurd to think that it is consistent with a loving act to bring somebody into this world knowing that there going to have to face their mortality, even if you give them all the joy in the world. You can’t protect them if a nuclear bomb drops, or from a car accident resulting in full bodily paralyses, they could get cancer.

I don’t think you are really thinking this through, you like the idea of having kids, and i doubt you gave it much thought to how they would react to reality, you just had them. There are plenty of rich kids that commit suicide.

However, i am glad things are good for you and your family.
 
IWantGod said:
Its great now kids but your gonna cease to exist, and you may live to see the day when your parents cease to exist.

I’m sorry but its absurd to think that it is consistent with a loving act to bring somebody into this world knowing that there going to have to face their mortality, even if you give them all the joy in the world.
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My father in law died not so long ago. Sad, but his time had come. He’d lived a long and happy life. We all remember the happy times we had with him.

Then a friend of my son died recently. I went to the funeral more as support for him. I never saw so much grief. Tragic. Too young. A life unfulfilled.

We all expect the former. I certainly do. We all dread the latter. But you never expect it to happen. You can’t live a life frightened of death.
 
Bradski said:
My father in law died not so long ago. Sad, but his time had come. He’d lived a long and happy life. We all remember the happy times we had with him.

Then a friend of my son died recently. I went to the funeral more as support for him. I never saw so much grief. Tragic. Too young. A life unfulfilled.

We all expect the former. I certainly do. We all dread the latter. But you never expect it to happen. You can’t live a life frightened of death.
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I find it odd the way you present yourself in this kind unconcerned kind of way, although i expected it. Your not concerned that your father no-longer exists?

In any case Death is real no-matter how much we ignore it. Its going to happen to all of us. And when were all dead, my point will be proven. That it was all meaningless. It was all pointless to begin with.

If metaphysical naturalism is true, then existence is absurd and the continuation of the human race is absurd. I don’t see how one could subjugate another mind to that absurdity. Sure we can just accept things happen but we don’t have a choice if bradski decides i should exist just because it feels like the right time.

I was going to point something out but i’m not going to talk about somebodies son that has passed away.

I wish to end this conversation. Thanks for participating.
 
Vera_Ljuba said:
Yes, procreation is definitely irrational. Unfortunately that blind nature, using the blind process of evolution made the process pleasurable, and most people procreate at a young age, before they grow up and before they realize that it is a dumb idea to “breed like rabbits”. Fortunately we are now able to separate the pleasure from the end, and we could curb that mad rush into overpopulating, and maybe even decreasing the overcrowding.

As for the irrationality of bringing children into the world, at least we try to help them, quite contrary to what God does. But, yes, it is irrational. Too bad that every living being is irrational. Maybe that is how we are “created” in God’s image. Irrationality is the norm - inherited from God. :).
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Sounds a bit naive. I polled myself on three different occasions and every time the results were the same :): the vast majority of people, tacitly or not, consciously or not, prefer existence to nonexistence. Generally speaking we all wish to continue to live and even cherish what we have, and strive and have a hope for something better yet, even in this messed up world. As a starting point. Even people with relatively miserable lives for one reason or another don’t give up this innate desire for life and its inherent goodness easily.
 
IWantGod said:
I find it odd the way you present yourself in this kind unconcerned kind of way, although i expected it. Your not concerned that your father no-longer exists?.
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Not unconcerned. But you shouldn’t grieve for a life well lived. You should celebrate it. It’s not a tragedy. Whereas the young guy…that’s cause for grief. That was tragic.
 
Bradski said:
Not unconcerned. But you shouldn’t grieve for a life well lived. You should celebrate it. It’s not a tragedy. Whereas the young guy…that’s cause for grief. That was tragic.
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Your making me sad.
 
IWantGod said:
Why expose children to the possibility of suffering and pain, if the possibility of these things are contradictory to a loving act of creation?
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Indeed, having children while it’s natural it’s thoughtfully unethical, to impose life and suffering on someone else without their consent.
 
ANV said:
Indeed, having children while it’s natural it’s thoughtfully unethical, to impose life and suffering on someone else without their consent.
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That is the logical conclusion of consistent atheists who regard life as an accident which has no value, meaning or purpose, thereby rejecting the validity of the UDHR and condemning the vast majority of the world’s population as criminals!
 
IWantGod said:
Its great now kids but your gonna cease to exist, and you may live to see the day when your parents cease to exist.

I’m sorry but its absurd to think that it is consistent with a loving act to bring somebody into this world knowing that there going to have to face their mortality, even if you give them all the joy in the world. You can’t protect them if a nuclear bomb drops, or from a car accident resulting in full bodily paralyses, they could get cancer.

I don’t think you are really thinking this through, you like the idea of having kids, and i doubt you gave it much thought to how they would react to reality, you just had them. There are plenty of rich kids that commit suicide.

However, i am glad things are good for you and your family.
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Your view contradicts your claim to be a Catholic…
 
Not all children are born from “loving acts”. Some are the product of rape, or an unwanted pregnancy. Not all parents love their children. This world is full of sin and bad things. Children who are loved and nurtured are the product of parents who have loving hearts and good morality.

This world was created by a loving God, however Satan entered the world and corrupts human hearts. If people follow God and his laws they will try to bring up children who do the same. Those who choose to follow Satan will likely bring disaster on their children.
 
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