If the elect are saved, and if the rest are damned . .

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Tabcom, if one of the damned, on his deathbed, asks you “Why did God never offer me the grace to be saved?” what will you answer him?
 
LilyM said:
We’re not telling God how he should save - but scripture says (I believe in one of Paul’s epistles) that God desires the salvation of all.
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It is one thing to desire it - it is another thing to actually cause it to take place. Have you ever said to yourself…I would like to do this, BUT, I am going to have to do that instead. God infallibly saves some which is taught in Romans 9…but, for His own purposes and plans, saving all is not what is best.
 
Linkowski said:
It is one thing to desire it - it is another thing to actually cause it to take place. Have you ever said to yourself…I would like to do this, BUT, I am going to have to do that instead. God infallibly saves some which is taught in Romans 9…but, for His own purposes and plans, saving all is not what is best.
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How can what God desires not be what God wills? What could possibly make God think “I am going to have to do that instead”? What you say is true of humans because we do not have perfect knowledge, perfect holiness or unlimited power and wisdom. But God has all of those things, so how can there be a conflict between what he desires and what he does?
 
Here is a section from the excellent article on predestination from the old Catholic Encyclopedia, showing how predestination and free-will are compatible.
(1) The first quality, the immutability of the Divine decree, is based both on the infallible foreknowledge of God that certain, quite determined individuals will leave this life in the state of grace, and on the immutable will of God to give precisely to these men and to no others eternal happiness as a reward for their supernatural merits. Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, with all the different measures of grace and the various degrees of happiness, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient. Hence the Good Shepherd says of his sheep (John 10:28): “And I give them life everlasting; and they shalt not perish forever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.” But we must beware of conceiving the immutability of predestination either as fatalistic in the sense of the Mahommedan kismet or as a convenient pretext for idle resignation to inexorable fate. **God’s infallible foreknowledge cannot force upon man unavoidable coercion, for the simple reason that it is at bottom nothing else than the eternal vision of the future historical actuality. God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it. Whatever may promote the work of our salvation, whether our own prayers and good works, or the prayers of others in our behalf, is eo ipso included in the infallible foreknowledge of God and consequently in the scope of predestination **(cf. St. Thomas, I, Q. xxiii, a. 8). It is in such practical considerations that the ascetical maxim (falsely ascribed to St. Augustine) originated: “Si non es prædestinatus, fac ut prædestineris” (if you are not predestined, so act that you may be predestined). Strict theology, it is true, cannot approve this bold saying, except in so far as the original decree of predestination is conceived as at first a hypothetical decree, which is afterwards changed to an absolute and irrevocable decree by the prayers, good works, and perseverance of him who is predestined, according to the words of the Apostle (2 Peter 1:10): “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election.”
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tabcom said:
**
🤷 I don’t know, I’m not a Calvinist.**
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“A rose by any other name…”

I’m happy to re-phrase the question:
Since we are to begin trying to conform to the image of Christ now, how does the “tabcomist” view of predestination encourage and help someone conform to the image of Christ?

Peace,
+N
 
I disagree with predestination as it goes against free will and EVERYTHING else. Why bother to do anything? The stories in the Bible are perfect examples that WE need to amend our lives and sin separates us from God.

It is Gods desire that everyone be saved yet not everyone shares the same beliefs, faith or disposition to follow God.

Look at the good thief on the right of Our Lord during His crucifixion. That theif in all probability was destined for hell due to the choices he made during his life. Yet, at the last minute he repented. That was his choice and Our Lord pardoned him.

Those that believe that God has already made His choices are sadly mistaken.
 
Predestination is a de fide dogma of the Catholic Church. There seems to be some confusion on this doctrine and thus I suggest that everyone reads the following articles:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

I’ve posted these links several times. Since predestination has become a hot topic, I decided to post them again.

The following is from the second link:

**
We shall return to this point. But in any case, from this minimum admitted by all we get three propositions to which all Catholic theologians subscribe
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. They are: (1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians. But Thomists and Augustinians on the one hand, and Molinists and congruists on the other, differ in their interpretation of them.**

There is such a thing as a predestined elect and God will infallibly save them. Moreover, we believe that the number of the elect is irrevocably set. Where we differ from Calvinsim is that we believe God incorporates free will in the salvation of the elect and that God offers sufficient grace to all and that there will be those among the reprobate (non-elect) who will accept it an be justified. However, these will not persevere to the end. Those that persevere to the end are the elect. Moreover, we believe that no one can have absolute, infallible assurance that they are of the elect.

God Bless,
Michael
 
How does one reconcile free will with predestination? I see it this way. Man will always seeks what he believes is good. Even the wicked seek what is good for them. It is a perverted understanding of good (i.e. drugs, promiscuous sex, money, etc.), but they see it as something that is good for them. Therefore, if we are convinced that something is good for us, we will freely chose it. I, for example, have been a “Titanic” freak since 1986. So if someone were to offer me a free book on the Titanic, I would gladly accept it. Was I forced to accept it? No. Similarly, God can arrange it so that a person can come to the conclusion that chosing God is the greatest good for him/her and thus recieve a free response from that person to His grace. I don’t know if I’m making sense here. This topic can be pretty confusing. :confused:

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
Predestination is a de fide dogma of the Catholic Church. There seems to be some confusion on this doctrine and thus I suggest that everyone reads the following articles:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

I’ve posted these links several times. Since predestination has become a hot topic, I decided to post them again.

The following is from the second link:
There is such a thing as a predestined elect and God will infallibly save them. Moreover, we believe that the number of the elect is irrevocably set. Where we differ from Calvinsim is that we believe God incorporates free will in the salvation of the elect and that God offers sufficient grace to all and that there will be those among the reprobate (non-elect) who will accept it an be justified. However, these will not persevere to the end. Those that persevere to the end are the elect. Moreover, we believe that no one can have absolute, infallible assurance that they are of the elect.

God Bless,
Michael
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I can (or I have to :)) accept that. My understanding is that the elect are those of whom God knows that they will accept His grace and persevere to the end so He chooses to save them. Also my understanding is that God offers His grace to everyone so that they can choose, but many will refuse it (those are the non-elect). Am I right?
 
The thread - Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation shows quite clearly that the election of God does not have any basis except that of God’s gracious choice - not based on the man who wills or the man who runs - but on God that shows mercy. We have no choice in the matter.

Isa 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Ro 9:13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “**Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”**20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

God has the right to do whatever He wants to do with fallen humanity.
 
LuvHim said:
The thread - Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation shows quite clearly that the election of God does not have any basis except that of God’s gracious choice - not based on the man who wills or the man who runs - but on God that shows mercy. We have no choice in the matter.

Isa 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Ro 9:13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “**Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”**20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

God has the right to do whatever He wants to do with fallen humanity.
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But we have a choice. We can choose to accept His grace and obey Him, or we can choose to refuse and disobey Him. The first sin of Adam and Eve was to freely disobey God, no one forced them. On the other hand Mary freely accepted God’s will, no one forced her. We aren’t God’s puppets, God created us and gave us free will so that we can love Him by our choice, although we need His grace to do that.
 
antimon said:
But we have a choice. We can choose to accept His grace and obey Him, or we can choose to refuse and disobey Him. The first sin of Adam and Eve was to freely disobey God, no one forced them. On the other hand Mary freely accepted God’s will, no one forced her. We aren’t God’s puppets, God created us and gave us free will so that we can love Him by our choice.
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Ro 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I** WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”** 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

What is it based on??

Ro 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Ro 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

See the other thread - it is explained in places.

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
once again I ask: does God create some people just to send them to damnation no matter of their will and His love for them?

Because that is an inevitable conclusion of given verses and the fact that many people will go to hell.
 
SyCarl said:
I disagree that giving a freewill affects God’s sovereignty.
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**SyCarl . . . I read you post in its entirety. With respects to the above quotation . . . God’s sovereignty is effected. If man has free-will to accept God, then man’s free-will trumps God’s Will. **
 
antimon said:
does God create some people just to send them to damnation no matter of their will and His love for them?
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**Let me rephrase your question . . .‘Does God create some people just to send them to damnation?’ Yes.

With respects to ‘their will’ – they have no will to call on God.
With respects to ‘His love for them’ – God does not love vessels of wrath, natural brute beast, reprobates, false teachers, etc.**
 
frnate said:
Why should anyone care that the elect are saved and the un-elect are damned if there’s nothing we can do about it? (What I’m hoping for here is a two or three sentence reply that most likely begins with the word “because.”)
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Because…
😉 no, can’t do it–need definitions first. Who are the elect? Who are the un-elect? Who says there is nothing we can do about it?
Are we here arguing against the heresy of predestinationism?
 
ok I stop here. if your god created evil and sin, that is not the God I believe in.
 
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