If the Eucharist is Jesus

[irishpatrick]

It seems to me that the Eucharist is the single most powerful tool for Evangelizing, because if the Eucharist is what the Church claims–than that means it is (God), and all believers of all faiths should want to partake of that amazing Grace-filled and saving gift. However, if the Eucharist is merely bread and wine, than for all the history of the Church, Catholics would have been routinely committing grave sin by worshipping falsely.

I think it is a simple proposition…if the Catholic Church is correct about the Eucharist (which obviously stems from Jesus’s teachings and statements, and Scripture), than everyone should be Catholic.

 

[runningdude]

It seems to me that the Eucharist is the single most powerful tool for Evangelizing, because if the Eucharist is what the Church claims–than that means it is (God), and all believers of all faiths should want to partake of that amazing Grace-filled and saving gift. However, if the Eucharist is merely bread and wine, than for all the history of the Church, Catholics would have been routinely committing grave sin by worshipping falsely.

Many anti-Catholics do in fact accuse the Catholic Church of practicing idolatry by worshiping the Eucharist. Many Protestant groups, however, do not believe sacramental Holy Orders is required to celebrate Communion, but otherwise accept the Catholic Church’s Communion to be equivalent.

I think it is a simple proposition…if the Catholic Church is correct about the Eucharist (which obviously stems from Jesus’s teachings and statements, and Scripture), than everyone should be Catholic.

It is similar to the claim that Jesus committed Blaspheme by claiming divinity; the Catholic Church would be committing idolatry, except that it’s claim of Eucharistic divinity is true.

 

[irishpatrick]

Many anti-Catholics do in fact accuse the Catholic Church of practicing idolatry by worshiping the Eucharist. Many Protestant groups, however, do not believe sacramental Holy Orders is required to celebrate Communion, but otherwise accept the Catholic Church’s Communion to be equivalent.

It is similar to the claim that Jesus committed Blaspheme by claiming divinity; the Catholic Church would be committing idolatry, except that it’s claim of Eucharistic divinity is true.

Sure, all those points are accurate; however, my point is that when we speak to non-Catholics, it seems to me that the Real Presence is no-brainer. If all religions have at their core the desire to know and love God, than the Eucharist rises above it all because it is God–Jesus in His True Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. I am not sure how any religion or teaching or doctrine can get a person closer to God (while on this earth) than by receiving Him into their bodies.

I think too often Catholics do not offer Jesus’ Presence in the Eucharist as the most significant reason to consider the Catholic faith and Church.

Once, during a First Communion Homily, I heard a Priest say this: “…Other than Baptism, First Communion is the most important event in a Catholic’s life.” Again, what rises above receiving our Risen Lord into our bodies–His entire Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. I am often surprised that more Priests and Bishops do not use that approach.

The world has God on this earth with them in the Eucharist–and the vast majority either do not know that, or they ignore that reality. Sad.

On the flip side…if the Church, and Scripture, are wrong, and the Eucharist is just a symbol or sign, than all of Christian history is founded on a huge deception, because the early church believed in the Real Presence, and Jesus did promise that the gates of hades would not prevail–it seems if the Eucharist is a symbol, than the gates of hades did prevail from the very start.

 

[GAHere]

Sure, all those points are accurate; however, my point is that when we speak to non-Catholics, it seems to me that the Real Presence is no-brainer. If all religions have at their core the desire to know and love God, than the Eucharist rises above it all because it is God–Jesus in His True Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. I am not sure how any religion or teaching or doctrine can get a person closer to God (while on this earth) than by receiving Him into their bodies.

That was my thinking as well, however, with my practicing Christian friends and my no-longer-practicing-now-Baptist-or-other-denomination friends, when I present the joy of Christ living and present in the tabernacles of every Catholic church as a result of the daily Mass, they get hung up on our priesthood. We can’t share Christ Living In the Eucharist without pointing out the glaring problem with their conviction that any person (male or female) should be able to lead His sheep.

To accept the Living Christ in the Eucharist one must accept the Papacy and the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Easier for them to deny our belief in the Real Presence than to change their thinking on the other points of order.

 

[irishpatrick]

That was my thinking as well, however, with my practicing Christian friends and my no-longer-practicing-now-Baptist-or-other-denomination friends, when I present the joy of Christ living and present in the tabernacles of every Catholic church as a result of the daily Mass, they get hung up on our priesthood. We can’t share Christ Living In the Eucharist without pointing out the glaring problem with their conviction that any person (male or female) should be able to lead His sheep.

To accept the Living Christ in the Eucharist one must accept the Papacy and the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Easier for them to deny our belief in the Real Presence than to change their thinking on the other points of order.

Very good points–thank you.

I suppose those points also run along the path I am suggesting, because the beliefs of non-Catholics can be discussed in the light of the reality of the Eucharist. In truth, if people knew what they were missing, they’d flock to the Church and to the Lord in the Eucharist–I figure it is our task (as the light of the world) to help them see those truths, when we can.

People who have long held beliefs contrary to the Real Presence will have the most difficult time accepting it–and those are the cases in which we need to be the most loving and the most prepared to have a kind and open discussion.

 

[Pancras]

It seems to me that the Eucharist is the single most powerful tool for Evangelizing, because if the Eucharist is what the Church claims–then that means it is (God), and all believers of all faiths should want to partake of that amazing Grace-filled and saving gift. However, if the Eucharist is merely bread and wine, then for all the history of the Church, Catholics would have been routinely committing grave sin by worshipping falsely.

I think it is a simple proposition…if the Catholic Church is correct about the Eucharist (which obviously stems from Jesus’s teachings and statements, and Scripture), then everyone should be Catholic.

I read the thread and I have a point on this opening post that was not addressed so here goes:

Regarding the Eucharist as an ‘evangelizing tool’ it makes a lot of difference what you mean by “the Eucharist,” and to most everyone you talk to in the open forum, they’re most likely going to say that what you think it is and what they think it is might not be the same thing but your reality and their reality do not have to be the same thing.

They think this because ever since modern philosophers got a handle on the way people look at life, there has been a steady decline in our intelligible mind. Do you know what I’m talking about?
.

 

[irishpatrick]

I read the thread and I have a point on this opening post that was not addressed so here goes:

Regarding the Eucharist as an ‘evangelizing tool’ it makes a lot of difference what you mean by “the Eucharist,” and to most everyone you talk to in the open forum, they’re most likely going to say that what you think it is and what they think it is might not be the same thing but your reality and their reality do not have to be the same thing.

They think this because ever since modern philosophers got a handle on the way people look at life, there has been a steady decline in our intelligible mind. Do you know what I’m talking about?
.

You hit many good points. I do know what you are talking about, and yet, the different ways various people view the Eucharist is the launch platform for us to speak about what Jesus said about the Eucharist (that it is truly His Body and Blood). Imagine the change that would sweep across the world if people came to know that God is with us here on earth.

 

[Pancras]

You hit many good points. I do know what you are talking about, and yet, the different ways various people view the Eucharist is the launch platform for us to speak about what Jesus said about the Eucharist (that it is truly His Body and Blood). Imagine the change that would sweep across the world if people came to know that God is with us here on earth.

What would be the ‘change’ if they came to know that’s what you think (God is with us here on earth) but you have a right to think that if you want to, but you have no right to tell them that they have to agree with you? That is, what they’re willing to “come to know” is that you have a different opinion than they do. So why should they care about your opinion? How does their not caring about what you think when they find out what you think make any change “sweep across the world?”

It seems to me that there is an obstacle that must be overcome, somehow, and that obstacle is the principle of subjectivism in the mind, for so long as that is what people believe it makes no difference what you tell them, as their response will be something like, “You have your right to your opinion and I have my right to mine.”

How do you approach them when they say that what Jesus said about the Eucharist (that it is truly His Body and Blood) is fine for Jesus, but that’s just His opinion? He can believe what He wants because we have freedom of religion which lets Him believe His own thing (and so too for everyone else)?
.

 

[GAHere]

It seems to me that there is an obstacle that must be overcome, somehow, and that obstacle is the principle of subjectivism in the mind, for so long as that is what people believe it makes no difference what you tell them, as their response will be something like, “You have your right to your opinion and I have my right to mine.”

How do you approach them when they say that what Jesus said about the Eucharist (that it is truly His Body and Blood) is fine for Jesus, but that’s just His opinion? He can believe what He wants because we have freedom of religion which lets Him believe His own thing (and so too for everyone else)?
.

Not just the subjectivism, because many of those I encounter believe Jesus meant what he said at the time. They accept the bread was body/blood then, they do not (cannot) accept that perpetuates into the now. Again, that’s because in order to conceive of that they’d have to accept the Papacy, the Priesthood, and the Church. Easier to convince themselves thru scripture that we are wrong about extending the Eucharist beyond that Last Supper.

irishpatrick, please remember that the veil of understanding is lifted by the Holy Spirit. Recall the Road to Emmaus and how it was only when Jesus broke the bread at the end of the day that those he was with were able to recognize him as the risen Christ. Do not get discouraged when we are unable to sway others with facts, scripture, Tradition the Truth of the Real Presence. It is not our efforts which will move them, only the Spirit’s. Continue to pray on their behalf that their hearts will be opened and prepared to receive the revelation of the Truth of the Eucharist in God’s time.

 

[irishpatrick]

What would be the ‘change’ if they came to know that’s what you think (God is with us here on earth) but you have a right to think that if you want to, but you have no right to tell them that they have to agree with you? That is, what they’re willing to “come to know” is that you have a different opinion than they do. So why should they care about your opinion? How does their not caring about what you think when they find out what you think make any change “sweep across the world?”

It seems to me that there is an obstacle that must be overcome, somehow, and that obstacle is the principle of subjectivism in the mind, for so long as that is what people believe it makes no difference what you tell them, as their response will be something like, “You have your right to your opinion and I have my right to mine.”

How do you approach them when they say that what Jesus said about the Eucharist (that it is truly His Body and Blood) is fine for Jesus, but that’s just His opinion? He can believe what He wants because we have freedom of religion which lets Him believe His own thing (and so too for everyone else)?
.

So many questions in your post.

The world would change dramatically if all people came to believe that God is with them in the Eucharist. There’d be incredibly less strife and conflict, incredibly less starving and poor people, etc.

Everything you propose can and has happened; however, the point I am making is that there is really only ONE true view of the Eucharist (that it is Jesus’ real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity). People will choose to reject that for a plethora of reasons, as they already do. However, it seems to me that the Eucharist (God) as Jesus taught is the launch point for many fruitful conversations, in which some might come to believe, while others (probably the majority) will continue to reject the truth. Yet, every person added to the Body of Christ is a positive development for humanity and especially for souls.

 

[irishpatrick]

Not just the subjectivism, because many of those I encounter believe Jesus meant what he said at the time. They accept the bread was body/blood then, they do not (cannot) accept that perpetuates into the now. Again, that’s because in order to conceive of that they’d have to accept the Papacy, the Priesthood, and the Church. Easier to convince themselves thru scripture that we are wrong about extending the Eucharist beyond that Last Supper.

irishpatrick, please remember that the veil of understanding is lifted by the Holy Spirit. Recall the Road to Emmaus and how it was only when Jesus broke the bread at the end of the day that those he was with were able to recognize him as the risen Christ. Do not get discouraged when we are unable to sway others with facts, scripture, Tradition the Truth of the Real Presence. It is not our efforts which will move them, only the Spirit’s. Continue to pray on their behalf that their hearts will be opened and prepared to receive the revelation of the Truth of the Eucharist in God’s time.

I apologize if I somehow made you feel as if I am discouraged…far from that.

I am well aware that the Holy Spirit provides understanding; however, that can often come after people have first heard a reasonable presentation of the truth. We are not to be static people (as if we are stones in a rock garden); rather, we are to be the light of the world, called to help bring Christ to other people. One of the most powerful realities we are blessed with is the Real Presence. There are many ways to help souls come to Christ, and prayer is a powerful tool, so is living a holy life for others to see, so is a clear verbal witness to the truth to others, and so is the speaking about the realities of the Eucharist. Again, we are not immovable, unworking, stones in a rock garden, we are called to help souls come to Christ, and by doing that the Holy Spirit can gather them for the Lord. The harvest is plentiful, and the laborers are few.

 

[Pancras]

.
This is a very good response, GAHere. Thank you!

Not just the subjectivism, because many of those I encounter believe Jesus meant what he said at the time. They accept the bread was body/blood then, they do not (cannot) accept that perpetuates into the now. Again, that’s because in order to conceive of that they’d have to accept the Papacy, the Priesthood, and the Church. Easier to convince themselves thru scripture that we are wrong about extending the Eucharist beyond that Last Supper.

irishpatrick, please remember that the veil of understanding is lifted by the Holy Spirit. Recall the Road to Emmaus and how it was only when Jesus broke the bread at the end of the day that those he was with were able to recognize him as the risen Christ. Do not get discouraged when we are unable to sway others with facts, scripture, Tradition the Truth of the Real Presence. It is not our efforts which will move them, only the Spirit’s. Continue to pray on their behalf that their hearts will be opened and prepared to receive the revelation of the Truth of the Eucharist in God’s time.

Perhaps you won’t mind if I offer one small point of clarification. It would be untrue to say that anyone can honestly use Scripture to “convince themselves” that Catholics are wrong about extending the Eucharist beyond the Last Supper. The only way they can “convince themselves through Scripture” is by way of their abuse of Scripture, by for example, misinterpretation thereof. (Even the devil can quote Scripture.)

Could it be you meant to say,* “Easier to convince themselves through a misinterpretation of Scripture, that we are wrong?” *
.

 

[Pancras]

So many questions in your post.

When I read that I went back going, “Oh yeah? How many were there?” And I counted 5 (five) of them. I’ll have to admit, I wasn’t bothering to count them, before!

*The world would change dramatically if all people came to believe that God is with them in the Eucharist. There’d be incredibly less strife and conflict, incredibly less starving and poor people, etc.

Everything you propose can and has happened; however, the point I am making is that there is really only ONE true view of the Eucharist (that it is Jesus’ real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity). People will choose to reject that for a plethora of reasons, as they already do. However, it seems to me that the Eucharist (God) as Jesus taught is the launch point for many fruitful conversations, in which some might come to believe, while others (probably the majority) will continue to reject the truth. Yet, every person added to the Body of Christ is a positive development for humanity and especially for souls*.

Agreed. I would not put it past the power of the Eucharist to heal souls of this latent and pandemic addiction to subjectivism. It is a most pernicious and foundational malady of the intellect, and it might just be beyond the power of man to fight against it.

You are correct in saying that there is only one true view of the Eucharist. It is the view that resides in the mind of God and as He has revealed it to us through His Church. I was only mentioning the particular intellectual malady of subjectivism because it has become the principal heresy of our age. You’re correctly saying that the objective truth of God in the Eucharist cannot be denied, and I’m trying to say that there is another kind of “truth” that subjectivism allows, and that is, that reality is in the mind, and consequently, the objective truth of which you correctly speak is thought by MANY today to be merely a reality in YOUR mind, and it does not have to be a reality in theirs, whereby their intellectual processor circuits are SHORTED.

But the Eucharist is capable of fixing that short circuit.

Furthermore, and this is key, being aware of this obstacle of Kantian subjectivism is an enormous benefit for those who would evangelize because by being aware of its nature and manifestations, they will be able to see it arise in ever so many tiny ways, and then, they can properly assess the situation and take appropriate measures for the good of everyone, especially for those who might not otherwise benefit from the evangelization.
.

 

[Pancras]

I apologize if I somehow made you feel as if I am discouraged…far from that.

I am well aware that the Holy Spirit provides understanding; however, that can often come after people have first heard a reasonable presentation of the truth. We are not to be static people (as if we are stones in a rock garden); rather, we are to be the light of the world, called to help bring Christ to other people. One of the most powerful realities we are blessed with is the Real Presence. There are many ways to help souls come to Christ, and prayer is a powerful tool, so is living a holy life for others to see, so is a clear verbal witness to the truth to others, and so is the speaking about the realities of the Eucharist. Again, we are not immovable, unworking, stones in a rock garden, we are called to help souls come to Christ, and by doing that the Holy Spirit can gather them for the Lord. The harvest is plentiful, and the laborers are few.

That was a really intuitive and appropriate response. Are you a disciple of St. Patrick?
If so, can you say a few words about the Blessed Trinity? :shamrock2:
.

 

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[irishpatrick]

When I read that I went back going, “Oh yeah? How many were there?” And I counted 5 (five) of them. I’ll have to admit, I wasn’t bothering to count them, before!

Agreed. I would not put it past the power of the Eucharist to heal souls of this latent and pandemic addiction to subjectivism. It is a most pernicious and foundational malady of the intellect, and it might just be beyond the power of man to fight against it.

You are correct in saying that there is only one true view of the Eucharist. It is the view that resides in the mind of God and as He has revealed it to us through His Church. I was only mentioning the particular intellectual malady of subjectivism because it has become the principal heresy of our age. You’re correctly saying that the objective truth of God in the Eucharist cannot be denied, and I’m trying to say that there is another kind of “truth” that subjectivism allows, and that is, that reality is in the mind, and consequently, the objective truth of which you correctly speak is thought by MANY today to be merely a reality in YOUR mind, and it does not have to be a reality in theirs, whereby their intellectual processor circuits are SHORTED.

But the Eucharist is capable of fixing that short circuit.

Furthermore, and this is key, being aware of this obstacle of Kantian subjectivism is an enormous benefit for those who would evangelize because by being aware of its nature and manifestations, they will be able to see it arise in ever so many tiny ways, and then, they can properly assess the situation and take appropriate measures for the good of everyone, especially for those who might not otherwise benefit from the evangelization.
.

Many good and valid points.

I agree that many do feel that MY view merely belongs to ME, and that my views do not apply to all people. That, imo, is the location where we need to find a way to de-emphasize self and raise the truth Christ gave to the top, during our conversations with others. After all, Jesus left no ambiguity about the Eucharist, and the truth of the Real Presence was quite shocking even to those present during the Bread of Life discourse, so it is no surprise that many will have a problem believing today. Jesus gave us the key (imo) when He did not stop the people from leaving Him, He allowed for their disbelief, and He did not change His teachings or statement to fit their lack of belief…that is the key, to point to others that Jesus (who is God) faced the same disbelief from those following Him, and yet He did not change the truth for the non-believers.

In the face of many people leaving Him, Jesus did not change a thing–He held fast to the truth that He espoused, and all truths from Jesus are absolutes.

Thanks for the kind words in the other post.

 

[GAHere]

Could it be you meant to say,* “Easier to convince themselves through a misinterpretation of Scripture, that we are wrong?” *
.

That’ll work.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It seems to me that the Eucharist is the single most powerful tool for Evangelizing, because if the Eucharist is what the Church claims–than that means it is (God), and all believers of all faiths should want to partake of that amazing Grace-filled and saving gift. However, if the Eucharist is merely bread and wine, than for all the history of the Church, Catholics would have been routinely committing grave sin by worshipping falsely.

I think it is a simple proposition…if the Catholic Church is correct about the Eucharist (which obviously stems from Jesus’s teachings and statements, and Scripture), than everyone should be Catholic.

I believe non-Catholic Christians who reject the Eucharist are rejecting what they have been misinformed about the Eucharist.

Many of these are mistakenly viewing the Eucharist with God’s Essence from God’s presence.

I listened to many of them view the Eucharist as false because they don’t see the hands and toes of Jesus in the Eucharist. Believe it or not this false view of the Eucharist keeps many of them disbelieving in the True body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ real and substantial presence.

Essence and presence is a contradiction of protestants view of the Eucharist, apart from valid holy orders.

When God’s presence is made known in the burning bush, the Cloud, the Rock and fire in the desert, including in the Sacramental flesh of God’s presence is made known in Jesus human flesh. How difficult is it for God to make His presence known in the Lamb of God, the bread from heaven made present for all time in His Eucharistic bodily True presence.

The validly baptized non-Catholics are Catholic, because whether they accept it or not? The baptism of the blessed Trinity was given to the Catholic Church handed down from the apostles themselves to administer.

If we can get them to understand their sacramental baptism, they have the grace to receive the revelation of the True presence in the Eucharist from the Holy Spirit who teaches and reveals to us what Jesus sends Him to reveal.

Great topic:thumbsup:

 

[R_C]

if the Eucharist is what the Church claims–than that means it is (God), and all believers of all faiths should want to partake of that amazing Grace-filled and saving gift. I think it is a simple proposition…if the Catholic Church is correct about the Eucharist (which obviously stems from Jesus’s teachings and statements, and Scripture), than everyone should be Catholic.

Well, that’s like saying: “if Jesus Christ is really the Messiah, which obviously stems from His teachings and miracles, then everyone should be his disciple” and yet you had people wanting to throw rocks at Him, others calling Him possessed, others betraying Him, and then of course the disastrous insults throughout the Passion.

Yes, the Eucharist is truly Christ. No, it’s not enough for this to lead everyone to conversion, unfortunately.

 

[irishpatrick]

Well, that’s like saying: “if Jesus Christ is really the Messiah, which obviously stems from His teachings and miracles, then everyone should be his disciple” and yet you had people wanting to throw rocks at Him, others calling Him possessed, others betraying Him, and then of course the disastrous insults throughout the Passion.

Yes, the Eucharist is truly Christ. No, it’s not enough for this to lead everyone to conversion, unfortunately.

Those who do not believe that the Eucharist is God will not see any reason to become Catholic, I agree 100%. However, if those people came to believe in the Real Presence, how could they NOT join the Church so that they could receive? Of all the gifts that Jesus gave His Church, what is more important and more impactful than the Jesus in the Eucharist?

If one opens their heart enough to believe in the Real Presence, how could they hold back from the very belief they hold?

When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”​