If the existence of God is needed for things to exist at all

[roseproject]

…how can there be such a place as Hell, or anyone existing and experiencing conciseness of some sort, if Hell is a place where God ISN’T? If He isn’t there, wouldn’t that theoretically mean that the state of Hell is simply a “state” of not existing anymore? If God needs to be there for something to exist, how can someone exist in Hell?

Thanks in advance

 

[roseproject]

A better title would have been “If the absence of God means that you and I would cease to exist…” …er something

 

[Jesus_Lives]

…how can there be such a place as Hell, or anyone existing and experiencing conciseness of some sort, if Hell is a place where God ISN’T? If He isn’t there, wouldn’t that theoretically mean that the state of Hell is simply a “state” of not existing anymore? If God needs to be there for something to exist, how can someone exist in Hell?

Thanks in advance

Hitler chose to be the devil, he could have chosen to be a priest. God sent Hitler to hell, when God arrived, Hitler was gone.

Patton might have said that, you must fight for what is right. The Pope has many guns in his collection, really.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

…how can there be such a place as Hell, or anyone existing and experiencing conciseness of some sort, if Hell is a place where God ISN’T? If He isn’t there, wouldn’t that theoretically mean that the state of Hell is simply a “state” of not existing anymore? If God needs to be there for something to exist, how can someone exist in Hell?

Thanks in advance

Properly speaking, God is present even in Hell. What souls in hell experience is the chosen absence of his mercy and love. God sustains their existence, but they have refused His happiness and joy. And so they exist with only hate and sin. That is hell.

 

[DavidFilmer]

wouldn’t that theoretically mean that the state of Hell is simply a “state” of not existing anymore?

But what would be the difference between this “state” and simply ceasing to exist altogether?

Some have speculated that the souls in hell will, at some point, cease to exist. This usually comes from a rejection of the idea of eternal suffering because it is perceived as unjust (a lifetime of sins should not warrant an eternity of punishment).

The Church describes hell as “eternal” but I am not convinced that the Church has sufficiently defined that term to absolutely preclude this theory.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

The Church is pretty clear that hell is literally eternal, as life in heaven is eternal. The condition of the condemned will never change. This is Dogma.

 

[Richca]

…how can there be such a place as Hell, or anyone existing and experiencing conciseness of some sort, if Hell is a place where God ISN’T? If He isn’t there, wouldn’t that theoretically mean that the state of Hell is simply a “state” of not existing anymore? If God needs to be there for something to exist, how can someone exist in Hell?

Thanks in advance

God is everywhere by His essence, presence, and power but He is not in the damned by His grace as He is in the blessed. God is an infinite, boundless, immeasurable being and there is no place that he created where He cannot be for He upholds all things in existence including the demons and evil humans in hell. The demons and evil humans in hell lack sanctifying grace and the beatific vision. Heaven is where the blessed see God face to face. Our faith teaches us that there are fallen angels in hell and humans do not cease to exist when they die. At death comes the immediate judgement and we either go to hell, purgatory, or heaven. Purgatory is a temporal place where we need to be purified of our sins, punishments, and imperfections before we can enter heaven. Heaven and hell is eternal.

 

[The_Reginator]

Properly speaking, God is present even in Hell. What souls in hell experience is the chosen absence of his mercy and love. God sustains their existence, but they have refused His happiness and joy. And so they exist with only hate and sin. That is hell.

A great answer to this question!!

 

[thinkandmull]

Hitler chose to be the devil, he could have chosen to be a priest. God sent Hitler to hell, when God arrived, Hitler was gone.

Patton might have said that, you must fight for what is right. The Pope has many guns in his collection, really.

Maybe Hitler made it

 

[Bahman]

…how can there be such a place as Hell, or anyone existing and experiencing conciseness of some sort, if Hell is a place where God ISN’T? If He isn’t there, wouldn’t that theoretically mean that the state of Hell is simply a “state” of not existing anymore? If God needs to be there for something to exist, how can someone exist in Hell?

Thanks in advance

The better question is that how possibly evil could exist considering the following facts, 1) We are inside the image of God, 2) Evil is absence of good, 3) God is good, 4) Evil exists.

 

[Bahman]

Properly speaking, God is present even in Hell. What souls in hell experience is the chosen absence of his mercy and love. God sustains their existence, but they have refused His happiness and joy. And so they exist with only hate and sin. That is hell.

What you are saying cannot be correct because it is logically inconsistent that God holds sinners in state of misery considering the fact that God is love.

 

[black_sphere]

What you are saying cannot be correct because it is logically inconsistent that God holds sinners in state of misery considering the fact that God is love.

God is not just love. God is divine love, which is different. No one is capable of expressing such love, only God.

 

[Bahman]

God is not just love. God is divine love, which is different. No one is capable of expressing such love, only God.

You are adding nothing by saying that we cannot understand God. This is a philosophy forum and you should provide an argument to help the discussion. We in fact should understand God because God needs to justify his judgment to us. Otherwise, we have to live with the confusion that we we should spend our time in Hell or Heaven.

 

[Richca]

What you are saying cannot be correct because it is logically inconsistent that God holds sinners in state of misery considering the fact that God is love.

God is also just and if angels or humans do not want to submit themselves to his authority, their creator, than there are consequences.

 

[HelenRose]

Hitler chose to be the devil, he could have chosen to be a priest. God sent Hitler to hell, when God arrived, Hitler was gone.

Patton might have said that, you must fight for what is right. The Pope has many guns in his collection, really.

I suspect strongly that Hitler is in Hell. Be we don’t know that for sure. To my knowledge the Church has not stated that any single person is in Hell.

 

[HelenRose]

What you are saying cannot be correct because it is logically inconsistent that God holds sinners in state of misery considering the fact that God is love.

The problem I often find in discussions of this nature is tendency to look at logic as supreme thought. Logic is a tool. It can only work when two people can agree on a primary idea.
Logic is not God and to try to understand the mind of God by simply using logic, is trying to use a hammer to understand the mind of a carpenter. Logic is a wonderful tool but it is only a tool.
God is above human logic. There is no possible logical reason for Christ to come to Earth to die on the cross.

When two or more people say that God is love. They must first have the primary agreement that God exists.
If we are trying to prove or disprove the existence of God using the word love we must have an agreement on what exactly is love.

I love hamburgers. If a hamburger is spoiled I throw it away. Oops not a good analogy.

I love photos of exploding stars. Does that mean that I love massive destruction?
There are those of my friends who love the Broncos.
I love my grandchildren. My love for my grandchildren does not cease when I see them take on a life style that I believe will harm them.
Love is the reason some people will cling to and dominate another person.
Some people define love as a soft warm fuzzy.
Some people define love as proper discipline.
Love can also be expressed by allowing a loved one freedom.

My understanding of Church teaching is that God loves us in the expression of freedom.
We are free to accept or reject God. It is my thought that if a person rejects God, God does not destroy that person. He allows that person to exist outside of God.

If a person rejects God in this life, what makes them think that they will not reject God in the life to come?

I think that Hell is a permanent self willed hatred and rejection of God. It is a permanent and self willed statement of, “I will not love you. I am my own god and need no other.”
I have often thought that was the meaning of the story of the Fall of Satan. God loved Satan but Satan rejected that love and turned instead to a permanent hatred.

 

[The_Reginator]

The problem I often find in discussions of this nature is tendency to look at logic as supreme thought. Logic is a tool. It can only work when two people can agree on a primary idea.
Logic is not God and to try to understand the mind of God by simply using logic, is trying to use a hammer to understand the mind of a carpenter. Logic is a wonderful tool but it is only a tool.
God is above human logic. There is no possible logical reason for Christ to come to Earth to die on the cross.

When two or more people say that God is love. They must first have the primary agreement that God exists.
If we are trying to prove or disprove the existence of God using the word love we must have an agreement on what exactly is love.

I love hamburgers. If a hamburger is spoiled I throw it away. Oops not a good analogy.

I love photos of exploding stars. Does that mean that I love massive destruction?
There are those of my friends who love the Broncos.
I love my grandchildren. My love for my grandchildren does not cease when I see them take on a life style that I believe will harm them.
Love is the reason some people will cling to and dominate another person.
Some people define love as a soft warm fuzzy.
Some people define love as proper discipline.
Love can also be expressed by allowing a loved one freedom.

My understanding of Church teaching is that God loves us in the expression of freedom.
We are free to accept or reject God. It is my thought that if a person rejects God, God does not destroy that person. He allows that person to exist outside of God.

If a person rejects God in this life, what makes them think that they will not reject God in the life to come?

I think that Hell is a permanent self willed hatred and rejection of God. It is a permanent and self willed statement of, “I will not love you. I am my own god and need no other.”
I have often thought that was the meaning of the story of the Fall of Satan. God loved Satan but Satan rejected that love and turned instead to a permanent hatred.

HelenRose, your post is really worth the read … and a re-read.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Very well put!

 

[Bahman]

The problem I often find in discussions of this nature is tendency to look at logic as supreme thought. Logic is a tool. It can only work when two people can agree on a primary idea.
Logic is not God and to try to understand the mind of God by simply using logic, is trying to use a hammer to understand the mind of a carpenter. Logic is a wonderful tool but it is only a tool.

There are several issues relate to your post. 1) Logic close our hands when we are arguing (our discussion) or doing something (working on some. Without logic nothing has its own correction. 2) Logic is need to discuss our final destiny after death since we need to be convince about our action.

God is above human logice.

He cannot be. 2+2=4 always.

There is no possible logical reason for Christ to come to Earth to die on the cross.

How? To me Christ action was completely useless. Why you should die when you could stay and teach people? Etc.

When two or more people say that God is love. They must first have the primary agreement that God exists.
If we are trying to prove or disprove the existence of God using the word love we must have an agreement on what exactly is love. I love hamburgers. If a hamburger is spoiled I throw it away. Oops not a good analogy.

My question was how a God which is love can sent his children in state fire, so called Heel.

My understanding of Church teaching is that God loves us in the expression of freedom.
We are free to accept or reject God. It is my thought that if a person rejects God, God does not destroy that person. He allows that person to exist outside of God.

If a person rejects God in this life, what makes them think that they will not reject God in the life to come?

I think that Hell is a permanent self willed hatred and rejection of God. It is a permanent and self willed statement of, “I will not love you. I am my own god and need no other.”
I have often thought that was the meaning of the story of the Fall of Satan. God loved Satan but Satan rejected that love and turned instead to a permanent hatred.

The idea of loving people in expression freedom is alright. But that is not a super fine attribute because our destiny is defined by rejection. God’s love should be unconditional meaning that his love toward us shouldn’t increase or decrease by our action.

 

[HelenRose]

Hitler chose to be the devil, he could have chosen to be a priest. God sent Hitler to hell, when God arrived, Hitler was gone.

Patton might have said that, you must fight for what is right. The Pope has many guns in his collection, really.

I don’t think that the Church has ever declared any particular person in Hell. We can surmise with a certain amount of accuracy that Hitler but we don’t that for sure.

 

[Ghosty]

Bahman: If I may be so bold as to respond for HelenRose, saying God is above human logic is not to say that God contradicts logic, nor to say that logic is flawed. It is saying that human logic is very, very limited compared to the sheer vastness of reality, and can’t even begin to reach God. Our logic can deduce the existence of God through various avenues of inquiry, but God is not “logical” like math. Math is actually a lesser instrument than logic, it is an application of logic.

To use an analogy, we see a wide spectrum of color with our natural eyes. Good eyes see more colors than bad eyes, but the color spectrum is the same for everyone. There are even colors that the human eye literally can’t see. Saying that ultraviolet is beyond human vision is not to say that ultraviolet light contradicts the visible color spectrum.

If you are looking for God with logic you will find Him, but only His fingerprints, not His fingers, and certainly not His Face.