If the finite universe does not exist in God, then where does it exist?

[Linux]

If the finite universe does not exist in God, there where does it exist?

 

[Della]

What do you mean by “exist in God?” Do you mean that you think it exists outside of God? Or that if God is not in it there is no God? Or something else or a combination thereof? Please clarify. :tiphat:

 

[Linux]

What do you mean by “exist in God?” Do you mean that you think it exists outside of God? Or that if God is not in it there is no God? Or something else or a combination thereof? Please clarify. :tiphat:

 

[Linux]

What do you mean by “exist in God?” Do you mean that you think it exists outside of God? Or that if God is not in it there is no God? Or something else or a combination thereof? Please clarify. :tiphat:

Why do I need to clarify? I did not asked if it exist outside of God or that if God is not in it there is no God. I asked if it does not exist in God, **where does it exist. **

 

[Della]

Why do I need to clarify? I did not asked if it exist outside of God or that if God is not in it there is no God. I asked if it does not exist in God, **where does it exist. **

I guess I don’t understand what you are driving at, then. For, all things exist “in God” simply because God created them. How else do you mean it, if you mean something else? Truly, I’m not trying to be difficult, but rather trying to grasp your point/question.

 

[Linux]

I guess I don’t understand what you are driving at, then. For, all things exist “in God” simply because God created them. How else do you mean it, if you mean something else? Truly, I’m not trying to be difficult, but rather trying to grasp your point/question.

Let me make the question more simple

Where does the universe exist?

 

[meltzerboy]

Let me make the question more simple

Where does the universe exist?

The universe exists as G-d’s creation. He created it, maintains it, is involved in the lives of its creatures, loves them, knows everything about them; however, G-d’s creation is apart from G-d Himself, Who is a separate Being. The material universe has physical and temporal dimensions from which G-d’s spiritual essence is beyond. And yet we are made in G-d’s image and likeness and beloved by Him in a personal and interactive manner.

 

[z_0101]

Linux

What is it with you?
You basically asked the same question in " Is it metaphysically possible to have an actually infinite number of successive states? If not, what does that mean for heaven? ( 1 2 3 4) - Linux "
Four pages of what finally degenerated into an argument of semantics that earned a moderator warning!

There you ask about Heaven and the existence in an infinite universe, here you try a twist by trying to imply that if the Universe is not finite, then where does the universe, therefor implied heaven and God, exist.

To those not versed in metaphysics, they will easily fall prey to your prattle and this little play on words.

Here then I will give the other readers of this thread the tools to understand what you ask so that more will not fall into your tar-pit as the answer to your question is quite simply given in my last post to your circular arguments: Is it metaphysically possible to have an actually infinite number of successive states? If not, what does that mean for heaven? Post #56

Wherein I provided the definitions that “Real Scientist” use, and that you also appear to refuse to accept, and re-stated the word of our God as given to St. John in The Book of Revelation.

What is it about God’s own words that he is the Alpha and the Omega that you refuse to accept? On the other hand, are you just simply trying to cause hate and discontent?

— from the end of the referred to post Is it metaphysically possible to have an actually infinite number of successive states? If not, what does that mean for heaven? Post #56 —

Nothing in this existence has any bearing on what Heaven is (or will be from our time perspective).

( ::: ) I say it again; all of this talk about infinite states means nothing as given to us by scripture in the Holy Bible in the Book of Revelation:
For GOD said:

(…) I am Alpha and Omega, the** beginning and the end**, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. (…) (…) And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new.

( ::: )

 

[ellzeena]

@ z_0101

Bravo!

I once heard a physicist say the creation appears to be a “thought”…a “thought” of its Creator.

 

[Della]

Linux

What is it with you?
You basically asked the same question in " Is it metaphysically possible to have an actually infinite number of successive states? If not, what does that mean for heaven? ( 1 2 3 4) - Linux "
Four pages of what finally degenerated into an argument of semantics that earned a moderator warning!

There you ask about Heaven and the existence in an infinite universe, here you try a twist by trying to imply that if the Universe is not finite, then where does the universe, therefor implied heaven and God, exist.

To those not versed in metaphysics, they will easily fall prey to your prattle and this little play on words.

Here then I will give the other readers of this thread the tools to understand what you ask so that more will not fall into your tar-pit as the answer to your question is quite simply given in my last post to your circular arguments: Is it metaphysically possible to have an actually infinite number of successive states? If not, what does that mean for heaven? Post #56

Wherein I provided the definitions that “Real Scientist” use, and that you also appear to refuse to accept, and re-stated the word of our God as given to St. John in The Book of Revelation.

What is it about God’s own words that he is the Alpha and the Omega that you refuse to accept? On the other hand, are you just simply trying to cause hate and discontent?

— from the end of the referred to post Is it metaphysically possible to have an actually infinite number of successive states? If not, what does that mean for heaven? Post #56 —

Nothing in this existence has any bearing on what Heaven is (or will be from our time perspective).

( ::: ) I say it again; all of this talk about infinite states means nothing as given to us by scripture in the Holy Bible in the Book of Revelation:
For GOD said:

( ::: )

Ah, sophistry. Gotcha.

 

[R_C]

Why do I need to clarify? I did not asked if it exist outside of God or that if God is not in it there is no God. I asked if it does not exist in God, **where does it exist. **

A question with invalid premise, for we firmly believe the following:

Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made.

in Him we live and move and have our being

 

[openmind77]

If the finite universe does not exist in God, there where does it exist?

Since God is infinite, there is no other place for the finite universe to exist except inside God.

 

[R_C]

Since God is infinite, there is no other place for the finite universe to exist except inside God.

And for those who think the universe is infinite, we must remember that creation shares in God’s being: we believe that God alone is.

 

[Linux]

Linux

What is it with you?
You basically asked the same question in " Is it metaphysically possible to have an actually infinite number of successive states? If not, what does that mean for heaven? ( 1 2 3 4) - Linux "
Four pages of what finally degenerated into an argument of semantics that earned a moderator warning!

There you ask about Heaven and the existence in an infinite universe, here you try a twist by trying to imply that if the Universe is not finite, then where does the universe, therefor implied heaven and God, exist.

To those not versed in metaphysics, they will easily fall prey to your prattle and this little play on words.

Here then I will give the other readers of this thread the tools to understand what you ask so that more will not fall into your tar-pit as the answer to your question is quite simply given in my last post to your circular arguments: Is it metaphysically possible to have an actually infinite number of successive states? If not, what does that mean for heaven? Post #56

Wherein I provided the definitions that “Real Scientist” use, and that you also appear to refuse to accept, and re-stated the word of our God as given to St. John in The Book of Revelation.

What is it about God’s own words that he is the Alpha and the Omega that you refuse to accept? On the other hand, are you just simply trying to cause hate and discontent?

— from the end of the referred to post Is it metaphysically possible to have an actually infinite number of successive states? If not, what does that mean for heaven? Post #56 —

Nothing in this existence has any bearing on what Heaven is (or will be from our time perspective).

( ::: ) I say it again; all of this talk about infinite states means nothing as given to us by scripture in the Holy Bible in the Book of Revelation:
For GOD said:

( ::: )

Why am i being made victim to paranoid attacks? What has the thread on infinity Got to do with this thread? Plus i nowhere argued that the universe is infinite; which makes you a dishonest person.

 

[Linux]

And for those who think the universe is infinite, we must remember that creation shares in God’s being: we believe that God alone is.

I have never claimed otherwise. God alone is esse.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This is a continuation of three or four other threads Linux has introduced. As far as Christians, Jews, and Muslims are concerned the universe was created out of absolutely nothing, not even God’s own Substance. This means that the universe exists " outside " the Mind of God, it exists in the universe of time, space and contingent beings. God is absolutely transcendent and other than the universe. Yet He operates most intimately within it. Yet in such a way that His Substance and the substance of the universe are not mixed in any way. Each remains in its proper sphere of existence.

For God that is the Infinite and Eternal, for the universe it is the contingent and dependent sphere of time and space.

Linux’s various assertions seem to be some form of Solipsism, perhaps that of Meister Eckhart, or some other form of Idealism.

Linus2nd

 

[polytropos]

To say the universe does not exist in God is not to say that the universe exists someplace other than God, because God is not a place. “Where” refers to something spatial.

 

[z_0101]

Why am i being made victim to paranoid attacks? What has the thread on infinity Got to do with this thread? Plus i nowhere argued that the universe is infinite; which makes you a dishonest person.

:tsktsk:

I’ll start at the end of your post and work my way up

:blackeye: How is my post dishonest?
The thread on infinity has everything to do with this thread in that you have merely taken the opposite side of the coin so to speak and if you had truly read my reply you would understand this moreover, if anyone bothers to follow the link to Thread 110124554 Post#56 and reads the articles cited there, they will also understand what you have done and start ignoring your threads on such inane topics.

I’ll try to tie the two threads together here in a very simplistic manner:
You have only attempted to use the limiting theory of divisional infinity as an attempt to discredit the existence of God, whom exists outside of the time-space continuum. This is very old heresy used time and again by atheist, relationists, and rationalist in an attempt to disprove the existence of God. (for those that would like to understand the Aristotelian philosophy is briefly cited in the other thread: ( Thread 110124554 Post#56 )
(BTW: My Patron Saint is Albert the Great, Universal Doctor of the Church - Teacher to St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Bonaventure. I have read thru several of his works dealing with Aristotelian philosophy, meta-philosophy, and scientific inquiry and, every day, use the basic scientific methodologies and philosophies that relate science and the faith developed by both St. Albert and St. Thomas. You are, IMHO, quite frankly out of your depth in a battle of wits with me over this topic. Worse yet for you, I was Evangelical Baptist and Agnostic for many decades before converting to Catholicism; thus, I’ve seen these arguments before! )

:blackeye: How is my post paranoid?
It is often found in psychology that the one suffering from a mental illness transfers that illness to another innocent person(s). Such transference is an attempt by the core personality to hold on to its identity in that by admitting that there is a defect of the core personality the identity of the ID is damaged… possibly resulting in a psychotic break.
(Oh, yes, I was a certified councilor some many decades ago and my Mother was well on her way to earning a degree in clinical psychology by the time I was eight, so I’ve read the texts just a few times; however, I degress)

So, because you cannot formulate a cohesive response to my post, you must stoop to the level of name calling - and I assert that it is because your personality either simply can’t acknowledge that there exists someone with more understanding of a topic than itself or can’t handle being wrong — maybe it’s more like both/and rather than either/or.

So, let us see:

• Refuted the dishonest comment - done
• Refuted the paranoid comment - done
• Tied the two threads together - done
• expect you to understand… no, and even if you do understand you will refuse to acknowledge such as all you want is a fight, hence your stooping to name calling! :tsktsk:
• expect you to personally attack/flame me again… certainly.

 

[JimG]

Since God is infinite, there is no other place for the finite universe to exist except inside God.

The term infinite as applied to God does not mean spatial infinity, since God has no extension is space or time. Such extension would in fact be a limitation.

 

[Ion]

The universe does not have essence, there is nothing eternal in it as materialists believe
It is like forms out of nothing, in nothing;