If the Hyde Amendment is repealed, will you still pay taxes?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Arizona_Mike
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Arizona_Mike

Guest
It hasn’t been much mentioned, but part of the Democratic Party platform calls for the repeal of the Hyde Amendment, which prohibits the use of federal funds to pay for abortion.

(USA Today did have a column today discussing it: usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2016/07/24/abortion-democratic-convention-platform-hyde-amendment-column/87436404/)

If Hillary is elected and is able to repeal the amendment, as her party calls upon her to do, the money we give to the government will be used to end innocent human life in the womb.

What would your moral response to this be? Refuse to pay your taxes entirely (and accept the consequences)? Not pay the portion that funds HEW (and accept the consequences)? Leave the country for the duration of the Democratic Party’s term of office (which could be a while)? Or pay your taxes but wage a political battle to fight the Democratic initiative?
 
If it went into law, then YES, I would have to refuse. the consequences would not be fun or enjoyable, but I highly doubt these kinds of ‘choices’ are going to be easy ones when they do come, they are going to be very tough choices to make, I think a large number of christians neglect to recognize that, they believe they will somehow be able to continue to ‘ride the fence’ between being a true christian and a maintaining a fairly easy and comfortable secular life too…eventually, that is not going to be possible anymore.
 
The Question about Paying Taxes

Mt 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and took counsel how to entangle him in his talk. 16 And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Hero′di-ans, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true, and teach the way of God truthfully, and care for no man; for you do not regard the position of men. 17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the money for the tax.” And they brought him a coin.** 20 And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 When they heard it, they marveled; and they left him and went away.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)**
 
Sy_Noe said:
The Question about Paying Taxes

Mt 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and took counsel how to entangle him in his talk. 16 And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Hero′di-ans, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true, and teach the way of God truthfully, and care for no man; for you do not regard the position of men. 17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the money for the tax.” And they brought him a coin.** 20 And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 When they heard it, they marveled; and they left him and went away.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)**

Catholics are required to obey the laws of their country when they are moral and just (including paying taxes). Hence the term “render to Caesar.” When a law becomes unjust, such as being forced to contribute money for the killing of the innocent, Catholics are not obliged to follow that law or rule. Whether the repealing of the Hyde Amendment is a just reason for disobeying the government is the topic that is being discussed here.
Click to expand...
 
Sy_Noe said:
The Question about Paying Taxes

Mt 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and took counsel how to entangle him in his talk. 16 And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Hero′di-ans, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true, and teach the way of God truthfully, and care for no man; for you do not regard the position of men. 17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the money for the tax.” And they brought him a coin.** 20 And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 When they heard it, they marveled; and they left him and went away.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)**

If we’re going to play Bible quotes, there’s a much older one:

Exodus 20: 13: “You shall not murder.” (Gotta love the NRSV, it gets the “murder” / “kill” distinction right. :))

Whatever the flaws of the Roman Empire, I’m quite sure old Augustus Caesar wasn’t using Imperial taxes to pay for legalized child murders. The old pagans were, in some ways, wiser than the modern ones. 😉
Click to expand...
 
RPRPsych said:
If we’re going to play Bible quotes, there’s a much older one:

Exodus 20: 13: “You shall not murder.” (Gotta love the NRSV, it gets the “murder” / “kill” distinction right. :))

Whatever the flaws of the Roman Empire, I’m quite sure old Augustus Caesar wasn’t using Imperial taxes to pay for legalized child murders. The old pagans were, in some ways, wiser than the modern ones. 😉
Click to expand...
Here’s an old one too about a fetus and the mother’s life.

Exodus 21:22-23 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
 
Sy_Noe said:
Here’s an old one too about a fetus and the mother’s life.

Exodus 21:22-23 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
Click to expand...
Accidental death is a whole other kettle of fish. There are also laws about diminished responsibility in killing a housebreaker in the Pentateuch. That doesn’t mean that we are routinely permitted to kill all children, or even all strangers lurking around our house. (Boy, I’d be zapping a lot of people if that were allowed. :D)

Besides, Christ pointed out that certain things were permitted in the Old Law “because of the hardness of our hearts”, but didn’t apply any longer. There are laws on divorce in the OT (and later developed by Rabbinical Judaism), but I doubt anyone would be too impressed if I divorced my wife for not cooking what I liked. (I’d probably end up wearing the dish in question on my head, too. :))

I realize that different denominations of Christianity see this differently, Sy, but I can only stand on the position of the Catholic Church, which considers abortion a grave evil. Praying for you. 🙂
 
I could try to claim a religious exemption, but of course taxes are fungible and the current Democratic administration has fought in court to compel nuns to purchase insurance policies that include contraception.
 
If you don’t pay your taxes, you could end up in prison and be subject to beatings and rape. From what i was told, many of the guards couldn’t care less.
 
ctb95 said:
Catholics are required to obey the laws of their country when they are moral and just (including paying taxes). Hence the term “render to Caesar.” When a law becomes unjust, such as being forced to contribute money for the killing of the innocent, Catholics are not obliged to follow that law or rule. Whether the repealing of the Hyde Amendment is a just reason for disobeying the government is the topic that is being discussed here.
Click to expand...
There are many things besides abortions that governments pay for. Some of those are immoral. If Catholics were required to refuse to pay taxes in this instance, no Catholic could pay taxes to the government - ever. There is no government anywhere that never uses taxes for an immoral purpose.

The fact is paying taxes is not immoral, even if some of those taxes are used toward an immoral purpose. Now if the law required that you personally perform an abortion, that would be an appropriate instance where disobedience of the law was required.
 
If the Dems do anything successfully, the end result is you will pay MORE taxes lol 😃
 
LeafByNiggle said:
There are many things besides abortions that governments pay for. Some of those are immoral. If Catholics were required to refuse to pay taxes in this instance, no Catholic could pay taxes to the government - ever. There is no government anywhere that never uses taxes for an immoral purpose.

The fact is paying taxes is not immoral, even if some of those taxes are used toward an immoral purpose. Now if the law required that you personally perform an abortion, that would be an appropriate instance where disobedience of the law was required.
Click to expand...
You are forgetting about ‘cooperation with evil in anyway’. contributing money that ultimately goes toward some immoral action is contrary to Gods laws. His laws MUST be the priority for us.

People love to drag out that verse about ‘give unto Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods’ when these topics come up, but I think Jesus would not feel the same way about our modern system of govt. If we are to ‘give unto Caesar what is Caesars’ then really we should be obedient little robots to our govt.no matter what they ask of us. Common sense should always apply.

Jesus told us they will hate you as they hated me, they will persecute you like they did me…if we are to truly ‘give unto Caesar what is Caesars’, this would never be true, christians would be model citizens in their view.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
There are many things besides abortions that governments pay for. Some of those are immoral. If Catholics were required to refuse to pay taxes in this instance, no Catholic could pay taxes to the government - ever. There is no government anywhere that never uses taxes for an immoral purpose.

The fact is paying taxes is not immoral, even if some of those taxes are used toward an immoral purpose. Now if the law required that you personally perform an abortion, that would be an appropriate instance where disobedience of the law was required.
Click to expand...
Ah. Thanks for the clarification! I have also heard that some states already publicly fund abortion at least partially, though I don’t know if this is true.
 
Geist said:
Taxation is theft. :mad:
Click to expand...
Not according to the Catechism, section 2240, which states:

*Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country.
*
 
mikekle said:
You are forgetting about ‘cooperation with evil in anyway’. contributing money that ultimately goes toward some immoral action is contrary to Gods laws. His laws MUST be the priority for us.
Click to expand...
The fraction of your taxes that would go to fund abortions is minuscule. Most of that tax money goes to go good things for the common good. And section 2240 of the catechism says we are obliged to pay our taxes. Your understanding of “cooperation with evil” is flawed.

If you really think that paying taxes is immoral, what about taxes for roads, some of which might lead to an abortion clinic? Even without government funding of abortion, you might think that funding roads that lead to an abortion clinic is immoral too, eh? Come on. Be reasonable.
People love to drag out that verse about ‘give unto Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods’ when these topics come up, but I think Jesus would not feel the same way about our modern system of govt. If we are to ‘give unto Caesar what is Caesars’ then really we should be obedient little robots to our govt.no matter what they ask of us. Common sense should always apply.
Click to expand...
You do not have to go to personal interpretations of scripture to understand this. Just read the catechism. It is much less ambiguous.
 
Of course I would pay taxes still. I would bet most would as well, as most are done by payroll deduction. Even if they aren’t, I bet no one can produce one bishop that is backing any sort of tax boycott, or is refusing to pay taxes. The cooperation with abortion is too remote to be sinful just for paying taxes.
 
mikekle said:
You are forgetting about ‘cooperation with evil in anyway’. contributing money that ultimately goes toward some immoral action is contrary to Gods laws. His laws MUST be the priority for us.
Click to expand...
Except that this is NOT the teaching of the Church. What is forbidden is direct, proximate cooperation with evil, not “cooperation with evil in any way”. Paying taxes is neither direct nor proximate towards abortions: it is morally neutral (but I hate taxes). Indirect, remote cooperation with evil is not morally forbidden nor sinful.

You are paying taxes according to the laws of the land, not paying for abortions. If taxes are needed to keep a country financially solvent and are levied justly, then even if that country diverts some of that tax money to an immoral action, YOU are not cooperating in that action. You simply did your civic duty by paying taxes. The guilty ones are those who make the decisions.

Therefore, any cooperation on your part is indirect and remote, and that’s even stretching it.

And there are the practical reasons. The IRS has police powers to enforce tax laws.

It’s good to want to do the right thing, but before anything, know what the right (and wrong) thing is first.
 
porthos11 said:
Except that this is NOT the teaching of the Church. What is forbidden is direct, proximate cooperation with evil, not “cooperation with evil in any way”. Paying taxes is neither direct nor proximate towards abortions: it is morally neutral (but I hate taxes). Indirect, remote cooperation with evil is not morally forbidden nor sinful.

You are paying taxes according to the laws of the land, not paying for abortions. If taxes are needed to keep a country financially solvent and are levied justly, then even if that country diverts some of that tax money to an immoral action, YOU are not cooperating in that action. You simply did your civic duty by paying taxes. The guilty ones are those who make the decisions.

Therefore, any cooperation on your part is indirect and remote, and that’s even stretching it.

And there are the practical reasons. The IRS has police powers to enforce tax laws.

It’s good to want to do the right thing, but before anything, know what the right (and wrong) thing is first.
Click to expand...
True.

Let’s take this out of its election-cycle, emotive context for a moment.

35-40% of my income, more or less, goes on taxes. I’ve reached the point where I groan at the thought of future promotions and pay hikes because of the way the tax brackets are set up. 😃

Said taxes are used to fund contraception, World Yoga Day, fringe extremist groups in the name of “social service”, flood relief measures that don’t work, an activist Supreme Court that doesn’t want to be held accountable, and innumerable foreign trips for our Prime Minister. And did I mention they slashed the health-care funding?

Oh, and they take it directly from our salaries, at source. Working for the federal government is fun. 😉

Some fights are just not worth picking. I just try to put the rest of my income to good use. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top