If the Hyde Amendment is repealed, will you still pay taxes?

[Geist]

Not according to the Catechism, section 2240, which states:

*Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country.
*

Taxation is the confiscation of wealth under threat of implied or explicit force. (IE if you don’t pay them eventually people with guns will show up on your doorstep).

How is that not theft?

 

[porthos11]

Taxation is the confiscation of wealth under threat of implied or explicit force. (IE if you don’t pay them eventually people with guns will show up on your doorstep).

How is that not theft?

Because it’s legislated.

That’s the ONLY reason.

And maybe because you (are supposed to) get something in return.

 

[pnewton]

Taxation is the confiscation of wealth under threat of implied or explicit force. (IE if you don’t pay them eventually people with guns will show up on your doorstep).

How is that not theft?

Calling taxes “theft” is useless rhetoric. Like most political talking points, rhetoric does nothing to advance discussion and understanding. Save that sort of stuff for bumper stickers.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Taxation is the confiscation of wealth under threat of implied or explicit force. (IE if you don’t pay them eventually people with guns will show up on your doorstep).

How is that not theft?

Your argument is with the Church, not with me. Are you questioning the catechism?

 

[Geist]

Your argument is with the Church, not with me. Are you questioning the catechism?

Yep.

 

[Geist]

Calling taxes “theft” is useless rhetoric. Like most political talking points, rhetoric does nothing to advance discussion and understanding. Save that sort of stuff for bumper stickers.

A thing is taken with force or it is given voluntarily.

Can’t be both.

 

[Geist]

Yes, and Pope Francis is going to canonize Ayn Rand on October 13, 2017.

If he finds time away from washing Muslims feet and welcoming them into Europe, it would be a fine use of his office. Possibly the first good one come to think of it.

 

[Geist]

Because it’s legislated.

That’s the ONLY reason.

And maybe because you (are supposed to) get something in return.

“Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State’s inhabitants, or subjects.”
― Murray N. Rothbard

 

[Tomdstone]

if you don’t pay them eventually people with guns will show up on your doorstep.

True. And many American prisons are not that pretty. Rikers Island prison is notorious for abuse of prisoners. Sexual assaults, beatings, gruesome deaths reported, yet few guards have been successfully prosecuted.

 

[pnewton]

Your argument is with the Church, not with me. Are you questioning the catechism?

Yep.

“Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State’s inhabitants, or subjects.”
― Murray N. Rothbard

As a Catholic, I find it odd you believe Rothbard and not the Catechism. Who we allow as our teacher is who we become.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Famously, Henry Thoreau spent the night in jail when he refused to pay a poll tax to support the Mexican War, an experience which caused him to write (and coin the term) Civil Disobedience. Later, both Joan Baez and Gloria Steinem refused to pay taxes to protest the Vietnam War (wonder what Steinem, an abortion proponent, would think of me refusing to pay my taxes because I refuse to fund abortion?)

During Vietnam, the number of Americans who refused to pay taxes, entirely or in part, grew so large that the IRS quietly decided to stop prosecuting them.

Here is a list of all the Americans who were convicted of refusal to pay taxes to support military spending since 1949, and the sentences they received. It’s less than a hundred people. Many of those were charged with filing a false or fraudulent W4. A surprising number were released after citing either their 1st or 5th Amendment rights.

nwtrcc.org/resist/consequences/war-tax-resisters-taken-court/

They could also seize your home or car, of course, and auction it to pay taxes - many of the war tax protestors purposely had few resources or divested themselves of them so they couldn’t be seized.

Here is a list of all the property that has been seized from war tax protestors since 1949. Again, it’s not large.

nwtrcc.org/resist/consequences/irs-property-seizures-war-tax-resisters/

I would also think that the political Left, if in power, would be less forgiving of a challenge to its secular authority on this issue than the Right was to prosecuting the wars.

But honestly, if even 5% of Catholic and Evangelicals refused to pay their taxes on this ground, with the support of pro-life congress members, they might have to back down.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Famously, Henry Thoreau spent the night in jail when he refused to pay a poll tax to support the Mexican War, an experience which caused him to write (and coin the term) Civil Disobedience. Later, both Joan Baez and Gloria Steinem refused to pay taxes to protest the Vietnam War…

As a percentage of total expenditures, a war consumes vastly more resources than the dollars that might be spent toward abortions. So the analogy is not comparable for that reason.

I could have more sympathy for such a movement if it was not so self-serving. Nobody likes to pay taxes because you could have bought stuff for yourself. Civil disobedience of the type practiced by Gandhi is much more laudable.

 

[Geist]

As a Catholic, I find it odd you believe Rothbard and not the Catechism. Who we allow as our teacher is who we become.

I find it odd the USCCB should be taken seriously in areas of government.

Lets not forget the USCCB lobbied every President since Truman for universal healthcare; with Obama we got it…sort of.

And what happened? Government dictated to the Church what services it was required to provide, and the various Catholic bodies sued the Feds for exemption.

When you ask for more government…you get more government. And government is not known for morality or fairness.

The USCCB also keeps advocating for stricter gun control, despite overwhelming evidence it does not reduce gun violence (see Chicago, Newark, Baltimore, Mexico, etc.).

Look, in faith and morals Catechize me till the end of time.

With economics and government…no, I’ll pass.

And since I feel cheeky, if “Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes” why doesn’t the Catholic church forfeit it’s tax exempt status in the US effective immediately?

 

[Arizona_Mike]

As a percentage of total expenditures, a war consumes vastly more resources than the dollars that might be spent toward abortions. So the analogy is not comparable for that reason.

The actual cost of the issue is not the issue, but the morality of financially supporting the homicide of innocent children.

In terms of the percentage of the budget, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and marketplace subsidies: Four health insurance programs — Medicare, Medicaid, the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), and Affordable Care Act (ACA) marketplace subsidies — together accounted for 25 percent of the budget in 2015, or $938 billion. Abortion “services” provided to women, or donations to Planned Parenthood to provide abortions, would presumably be under one of these programs, and by design, would presumably be not fungible.

Although not all healthcare expenses would be spent on abortion, of course, but defense spending is much less than the amount of money spent on health care in the U.S. - about 16%.

http://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/f...es/3-4-16bud-policybasics_2.png?itok=fqita01H

I could have more sympathy for such a movement if it was not so self-serving. Nobody likes to pay taxes because you could have bought stuff for yourself. Civil disobedience of the type practiced by Gandhi is much more laudable.

I would suggest copying what the anti-war protesters did to avoid such a complaint, and donating the exact amount that they refused to pay to a appropriate charity, such as (in this case) a pro-life organization, or an organization that provides aid to single mothers or children with birth defects.

 

[RPRPsych]

As a Catholic, I find it odd you believe Rothbard and not the Catechism. Who we allow as our teacher is who we become.

Besides which, Rothbard is both pro-choice and pro-passive infanticide.

 

[mikekle]

True. And many American prisons are not that pretty. Rikers Island prison is notorious for abuse of prisoners. Sexual assaults, beatings, gruesome deaths reported, yet few guards have been successfully prosecuted.

But they will have to answer for that one day, maybe not here on earth, but in the courtroom that really matters after you die, what excuse could any of these guards muster to defend themselves I wonder…" I was only doing my job", “everyone does it”, etc etc.

Jesus warned Christians would be persecuted in the days near the end, if we keep giving in and obeying everything they tell us, what reason will they use to arrest, and persecute us with? LOL

I think its important to keep in mind, there IS A TIME where we must NOT obey or choose to deny the faith, we will all have to make that choice. I doubt being overly concerned with earthly quality of life or your job, freedom, ‘its just how things are in our times’, etc is going to be an acceptable excuse to God

 

[Geist]

Besides which, Rothbard is both pro-choice and pro-passive infanticide.

And Ron Paul was a rigidly pro-life Libertarian.

Rothbard’s moral failing in accepting infanticide doesn’t diminish his observations on the abuses of the state (do keep in mind it is state power that keeps abortion legal) and economic theory though.

The author of this piece (also a Catholic as it turns out) explains the issue more clearly than I could:

reason.com/blog/2015/08/14/sorry-rand-paul-haters-pro-life-libertar

Edit: this is getting way off topic re: taxes and morality thereof. My apologies.

 

[RPRPsych]

And Ron Paul was a rigidly pro-life Libertarian.

Rothbard’s moral failing in accepting infanticide doesn’t diminish his observations on the abuses of the state (do keep in mind it is state power that keeps abortion legal) and economic theory though.

The author of this piece (also a Catholic as it turns out) explains the issue more clearly than I could:

reason.com/blog/2015/08/14/sorry-rand-paul-haters-pro-life-libertar

Edit: this is getting way off topic re: taxes and morality thereof. My apologies.

Correct.

And to be fair to Rothbard (RIP), while he wasn’t personally opposed to abortion, he did consider it wrong for the government to force those so opposed to pay for it.

And now, let us return to the regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Corki]

Some of our taxes already go to funding of abortions. Abortions have been provided to military personnel under some circumstances for years. The sad truth is that taxpayer money is used for a lot of immoral purposes. For example, government support for non-profits who try to help victims of human trafficking is tied to their referrals and support for abortions.

There is no way we can separate out the portion of our taxes that is being used for murder and other evils. My tactic is to try to net it out. For example, I have always been lax about taking all of my available deductions on my taxes. My feeling is that my family has been blessed and paying a little more wont hurt me and might help someone else. I am more diligent about deductions now and, as a result, pay less in taxes. If there is a situation where I can be the beneficiary of government funds, I will take it and make that portion unavailable for nefarious purposes. It’s not perfect, but it is better than just throwing up my hands and giving up.

 

[Tomdstone]

Jesus warned Christians would be persecuted in the days near the end,

A lot of things that Jesus said are to be taken metaphorically and not literally. For example, he said Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person.