If the music doesn't matter

[JMJ_coder]

Several times on these threads, those who support and favor contemporary styles of music – be it rock, country, folk, broadway – as all good for liturgical music have made the argument that as long as the lyrics aren’t expressly heretical (and some think that this is optional), then it makes no difference what style of music is used.

If that be the case, then why not just stick with traditional Sacred Music? For the sake of being pastoral to those who do think that it matters what style of music is employed in a liturgical setting, wouldn’t it be prudent to stay with the traditional Sacred Music (i.e., Palestrina, Gregorian Chant)?

 

[benedictgal]

Several times on these threads, those who support and favor contemporary styles of music – be it rock, country, folk, broadway – as all good for liturgical music have made the argument that as long as the lyrics aren’t expressly heretical (and some think that this is optional), then it makes no difference what style of music is used.

If that be the case, then why not just stick with traditional Sacred Music? For the sake of being pastoral to those who do think that it matters what style of music is employed in a liturgical setting, wouldn’t it be prudent to stay with the traditional Sacred Music (i.e., Palestrina, Gregorian Chant)?

Music does matter. What we use matters. I am reminded of a scene in “Gone with the Wind” when Rhett Butler had an argument with Charles Hamilton (soon to be Scarlett’s first husband). Charles pooh-poohed Rhett’s statements on how damaging the war would be, almost using the same line of thought that the proponents of contemporary music use for including this genre in the Holy Sacrifice. He ended by asking why it should matter to “gentlemen.” Rhett countered by saying that it should matter to “gentlemen”, a great deal of gentlemen and chided Hamilton for his immaturity as he walked out the door.

The problem is that the propoents of this genre of music (and this includes the publishing houses that routinely and systematically push this stuff towards unsuspecting parishes) apparently have not, in my opinion, read any of the authoritative documents of the Holy See on sacred music, including the documents written by Pope St. Pius X and Servant of God, Pope John Paul II. As Pope Paul VI wisely noted, “not everything is fit to cross the threshhold” as far as music was concerned. Even Pope Benedict XVI wisely observed that “certainly as far as music is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another.”

But, sadly, even papal statements are, in my opinion, routinely ignored. I am hopeful that come next year, when the Holy See issues its document on sacred music, some necessary house cleaning will be in order and we will be all singing from the same set of notes.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Music does matter. What we use matters.

Of course it does, you’ll get no argument from me there. The question is for those who don’t think that the genre of music matters, why not just stick with traditional Sacred Music for the sake of those who do think it matters (like you and me)?

I am hopeful that come next year, when the Holy See issues its document on sacred music, some necessary house cleaning will be in order and we will be all singing from the same set of notes.

Oooo. Tell me more – timeline, overview – details!

 

[benedictgal]

Of course it does, you’ll get no argument from me there. The question is for those who don’t think that the genre of music matters, why not just stick with traditional Sacred Music for the sake of those who do think it matters (like you and me)?

Oooo. Tell me more – timeline, overview – details!

Last month, I got to attend the Saturday morning portion of the Gateway Liturgical Conference when I was in St. Louis, MO (I was there to attend an employment-related conference, but, I got to attend this one as well). The keynote speaker was Archibishop Malcolm Rajith, the Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. He talked about Ars Celebrandi in Liturgy. He talked about beauty and the dangers of going into horizontalism. After his address, I got to ask him a question (off-stage) as to how music fits into all of this since what we have here in the United States is problematic. He told me that he understood where I was coming from and said that a document is coming from the Holy See early next year that should address my concerns.

I am hoping that the Benedictine reforms will finally tackle music. Poor Pope Benedict had to endure some of what we face week in and week out when he celebrated Mass at the Nationals Stadium. Maybe this is part of his response to what happened. I don’t know, but, the good secretary certainly gave me some hope.

 

[Newbie2]

Music does matter. There will always be those on either end of the spectrum, some that want Gregorian chants, others who want a jazz band, and most others somewhere inbetween…the bell curve.

As well there will be those who are overly dramatic on both ends in describing either how mundane or sacreligious the music on the other end sounds.

If you’re looking for anything more than guidlines from Rome, methinks you’ll be disappointed. I believe that the Pope and bishops recognize that mass can be “boring” for some, and that some degree of variety is necessary to keep the interest of particularly the young…while not going overboard.

Say all you’d like about “it’s not what one gets from mass but what one puts into it” (it’s quite true, I agree), but there are thousands, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of marginal Catholics, I’d wager, that would be turned away by what they’d consider crushing sameness and boredom in mass without some degree of variety of liturgical, especially musical expression.

 

[ASD]

…there are thousands, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of marginal Catholics, I’d wager, that would be turned away by what they’d consider crushing sameness and boredom in mass without some degree of variety of liturgical, especially musical expression.

Maybe you’re right. It would be nice to have some real numbers.

Anyway, that line of reasoning seems like a two-edged sword, right?

How many broken-hearted Catholics have drifted away from the faith because they can’t stand the pop culture banality and political correctness? How many drift away because Mass now seems like just more of the same stuff we get in every other part of our lives?

To my mind, those folks matter just as much as the others.

Maybe for another thread: I think there’s pretty good evidence from sociology of religion, etc, that ritual, what you call crushing sameness, is part of the appeal of religion. It seems like a pretty good empirical point: Constant innovation and pointless novelty is what drives many Catholics crazy.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[Deacon_Ed]

From my perspective as a former music director for my parish and as a cleric who is also a musician – music matters. Does that mean we can only use music that finds its roots in early Medieval Gregorian Chant? In the motet of the “Ars Antiqua” (1150-1300)? The Mass styles of the early Renaissance (1400-1500)? I think we can take music that is composed to day, make the melodies appealing and the words speak to the reality of God present and working in our midst and have it be “sacred music.” I don’t think that Broadway show tunes, popular music (regardless of genre) or anything that does not help the congregation to “raise their hearts and minds to God” is appropriate. But I don’t think that music, regardless of genre, is necessarily to be rejected out of hand.

Deacon Ed

 

[bpbasilphx]

You took the words right out of my mouth Fr. Dcn. Ed.

 

[Newbie2]

Maybe you’re right. It would be nice to have some real numbers.

Anyway, that line of reasoning seems like a two-edged sword, right?

Good point.

To my mind, those folks matter just as much as the others.

Maybe for another thread: I think there’s pretty good evidence from sociology of religion, etc, that ritual, what you call crushing sameness, is part of the appeal of religion. It seems like a pretty good empirical point: Constant innovation and pointless novelty is what drives many Catholics crazy.

Yep. I guess that’s why we have bell curves.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

You took the words right out of my mouth Fr. Dcn. Ed.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Deacon Ed, the dissonance of the Ars Antiqua and the early motets would be as bizzare as some of the “praise” music sung today. Each is equally inappropriate.

I am more than aware that many of the great motets are based upon popular Renaissance dance tunes. Call me a snob if you will, but Gabrielli, Monteverdi, et al wrote music that has lasted 500 years or so. Music does matter.

I am very often torn with this problem. I see the zeal of converts who come into HMC and bring with them musical expectations which are 180 degrees out from what I know. I see the zeal of cradle Catholics born after V II who think that Glory and Praise is the sine qua non of Catholic worship…

As a cathedral chorister, I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had people come up to me after an ordination to say “I can’t believe y’all sang Praise to the Lord…I haven’t heard that sung in years”.

We threw the baby out with the bathwater in 1969. Out went Praise to the Lord and in came Sons of God and They’ll Know We are Christians by Our Love…and things got progressively worse as in the “You who” song that is so popular.

So, if the Vatican is going to address this issue, all I can say is good luck. The Motu Proprio was ignored in my diocese. I’m sure this will be ignored as well.

 

[Aramis]

From my perspective as a former music director for my parish and as a cleric who is also a musician – music matters. Does that mean we can only use music that finds its roots in early Medieval Gregorian Chant? In the motet of the “Ars Antiqua” (1150-1300)? The Mass styles of the early Renaissance (1400-1500)? I think we can take music that is composed to day, make the melodies appealing and the words speak to the reality of God present and working in our midst and have it be “sacred music.” I don’t think that Broadway show tunes, popular music (regardless of genre) or anything that does not help the congregation to “raise their hearts and minds to God” is appropriate. But I don’t think that music, regardless of genre, is necessarily to be rejected out of hand.

Deacon Ed

I concur, Deacon Ed.

 

[Aramis]

As a cathedral chorister, I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had people come up to me after an ordination to say “I can’t believe y’all sang Praise to the Lord…I haven’t heard that sung in years”.

We threw the baby out with the bathwater in 1969. Out went Praise to the Lord and in came Sons of God and They’ll Know We are Christians by Our Love…and things got progressively worse as in the “You who” song that is so popular.

Don’t know about your diocese, but I know the local latin parishes have done Praise to the Lord right along with many of the “Lutheran Hymns” so popular with the Traditionalists. I’ve heard most of them done a capella, with organ, with folk group, and with soft rock band. Same song, done 4 different styles; 5 if you count the Filipino dirge-like rendition.

I’ve suffered through Filipino COmmunity masses where the music was sung so slowly that it became uninteligible… Immaculate Mary at 2 seconds per syllable…
Holy God We praise thy name at 1.5-2 sec per syllable…
… but that is how they sing the hymns… and even “Morning has Broken”…

 

[Cactus]

there are thousands, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of marginal Catholics, I’d wager, that would be turned away by what they’d consider crushing sameness and boredom in mass without some degree of variety of liturgical, especially musical expression.

I don’t know about that. They come to church seeking God. If they want to hear current musical styles, they know they can hear a lot of it - probably better performed, in clubs and concert halls. Trying to do this music in a lame way at the local parish just seems lame. It causes an entertainment faction (with all of it’s attendant egos) to grow where worshipful music ought to be.

 

[porthos11]

If the music didn’t matter, then why did the Church issue some pretty thick official books called the Liber Usualis and Graduale Romanum?

 

[VociMike]

From my perspective as a former music director for my parish and as a cleric who is also a musician – music matters. Does that mean we can only use music that finds its roots in early Medieval Gregorian Chant? In the motet of the “Ars Antiqua” (1150-1300)? The Mass styles of the early Renaissance (1400-1500)? I think we can take music that is composed to day, make the melodies appealing and the words speak to the reality of God present and working in our midst and have it be “sacred music.” I don’t think that Broadway show tunes, popular music (regardless of genre) or anything that does not help the congregation to “raise their hearts and minds to God” is appropriate. But I don’t think that music, regardless of genre, is necessarily to be rejected out of hand.

Deacon Ed

I think what you are describing here is exactly what Pope John Paul II had in mind when he said that sacred music should be written by composers who are steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae. It is not a set of rules that must be followed, but a mindset that thoroughly understands the roots and purposes of sacred music, and that builds on the best of the past.

Just as we are told “love God and do as you will,” so we can safely say to composers “be steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae and compose what you will.” The problem of the last 40 years has been too much of the latter coupled with far too little of the former.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Don’t know about your diocese, but I know the local latin parishes have done Praise to the Lord right along with many of the “Lutheran Hymns” so popular with the Traditionalists. I’ve heard most of them done a capella, with organ, with folk group, and with soft rock band. Same song, done 4 different styles; 5 if you count the Filipino dirge-like rendition.

I’ve suffered through Filipino COmmunity masses where the music was sung so slowly that it became uninteligible… Immaculate Mary at 2 seconds per syllable…
Holy God We praise thy name at 1.5-2 sec per syllable…
… but that is how they sing the hymns… and even “Morning has Broken”…

Aramis, I drive 25 miles one way to attend my cathedral parish and I have done so for the last 25 years precisely because of what you posted. I am assuming that by “Lutheran Hymns” you are talking about the hymns of my Catholic Bavarian ancestors

adoremus.org/0905Hymns.html

“A Mighty Fortress” goes over like a lead balloon in French Catholic south Louisiana let me tell you…

I am talking about the hymns I grew up with as a child…before Sons of God, They’ll Know We are Christians, Here I am Lord, etc.

What you hear the cathedral choir sing is just what I heard as a kid before Vatican II. Organ accompaniement. No guitars. Deo gratias, ite Deo gratias, no soft rock, no folk group. My parish belts out the old hymns with gusto precisely because of the folk groups, guitars, soft rock, etc.

I attend a traditional NO parish. I was an altar boy from 1958 through 1968. I’ve sung in the cathedral choir since 1983 and I learned how to sing at my Catholic boy’s high school in the 60s. Some of my classmates usurped the music for our graduation mass in 1969. I still bitterly resent it nigh unto 40 years later.

I know very little about Eastern Catholicism but it seems to me that our Eastern brethren are far more secure in their hymnology than us. And so, mon ami, Aramis, I stand upon my French and German ancestral roots and make no apologies for our “Lutheran hymns”. At least the congregation sings.

 

[pnewton]

Of course it does, you’ll get no argument from me there. The question is for those who don’t think that the genre of music matters, why not just stick with traditional Sacred Music for the sake of those who do think it matters (like you and me)?

There is a great deal of music that falls between the genres you mention in the first post and traditional Catholic music. To answer your question on face value, the reason one does not stick to just traditional music is that not everyone agrees with you. Those that prefer the traditional music are not the sum total of all Catholics, so of course that is not the sum total of all music. I think a better question is why do not more parishes at least do something to reach to those who prefer the traditional music.

I do not know for sure what you mean by traditional music, since the most obvious meaning is Gregorian chant. The reason we do not have Gregorian chant is lack of any musicians capable of leading and teaching the congregation. We only use a handful of traditional chants.

I have always tried to appeal to that which people sing the most, as that is the only real criteria of what people like. In my Church, a few of the contemporary hymns and most of the older hymns seemed to be the favorites.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The reason we do not have Gregorian chant is lack of any musicians capable of leading and teaching the congregation. We only use a handful of traditional chants.

I think that is a MAJOR PROBLEM!!! Full and active participation doesn’t mean you have to do everything. Why do people think that they have to do everything – it gets to such an extreme that some parishes horrifically have everyone gather in a circle so everyone can pray the Eucharistic Prayer.

If the choir is only meant to ‘lead’ the congregation, what’s the point. A single cantor is more than capable of giving the congregation hand gestures when to come in on the next verse.

Not all singing at Mass has to be congregational singing. And really, it isn’t that hard to learn. The problem is people don’t want to learn because it’s not “fun”.

Truly, a choir (a genuine schola cantorum) is meant not only to lead the charge in congregational singing, but to be employed in their unique ministry.

 

[pnewton]

I think that is a MAJOR PROBLEM!!!

Truly, a choir (a genuine schola cantorum) is meant not only to lead the charge in congregational singing, but to be employed in their unique ministry.

Dampen the caplock and take a chill. Did you now read what I said? I have no choir or schola. The congregation is the choir. Perhaps we could go with canned music, but why do that when those of your opinion do not exist that I have found in my parish.

 

[Canto]

Every part of the Mass is important including the music.

Vat II said all things being equal chant should be given pride of place

Are all thing equal - no
Is chant given pride of placce - no

Vat II said the Church’s music was it’s greatest artform and pricless. Here I am Lord and the like were written post Vat II so it refers most probably to chant and some polyphony.

The new hymns we get in Australia are bland, the word’s don’t rhyme and they are too hard to sing. One had a quaver rest - that means you take a breath for a quater of a beat.

All art is subjctive of course but not when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I’m one of the people who want chant restored. Chant while I will freeley admit can be extreemly hard to sing, the plainchant style (if in modern notation) is very easy to sing. Simple 1 and 2 beat notes to sing or flowing quaver (quater) notes.

Anima Christi (soul of my Saviour)
Adoro Te Devote (Godhead here in hiding)
O God of lovlieness (Italian hymn by St Alphonsus Liqupori)
Veni Emmanuelle (O come o come Emmanuelle)
Veni Creator Spiritus (come creator Spirit)
Tantum Ergo (down in adoration falling)
O Salutoris Hosita (O saving Victim)
Salve Regina Celitum (sp?) (Hail Holy Queen)

So often I find the hymns at Mass hard to sing - even the Gloria, Agnus Dei (Lamb of God), Sanctus (Holy Holy Holy) etc - If only I could sing like Karen Carpenter.

Plainchant is easier to sing and even if you think you can’t sing to save yourself - you can end up sounding pretty good singing chant.

Plainchants usually deal with the doctrines and truths of Christ and the Faith. I find them really prayerful too. They take the focus of us and lift up our hearts (Sursum Corda). Some new hymns deal with dancing and trees in the wind and such.

Pop rocks but not for the Mass - and I was born way post Vat II

Here I am Lord
It is I Lord
I have called you

Soul of my Savior, sanctify my breast,
Body of Christ, be Thou my saving Guest!
Blood of my Savior, bathe me in Thy tide,
Wash me ye waters, flowing from His side!

Stregth and protection may His Passion be;
O blessed Jesus, hear and answer me!
Deep in Thy wounds, Lord, hide and shelter me,
So shall I never, never part from Thee.

Guard, and defend me from the foe malign,
In death’s drear moments make me only Thine;
Call me and bid me come to Thee on high,
Where I may praise Thee with Thy saints for aye!

St Augustine said that when we sing we pray twice. Lets hope that we can ALL start singing again soon.