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GaryTaylor
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And where is the “Primacy”?
If the Papacy was really meant to be only honorary, then what about the Orthodox bishops?
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rinnie
Guest
Mickey what this Gospel is saying is we The GENTILES are now part of Christ in his Church, The Church is build on the Cornerstone Christ,.Huh?
**Eph 2:19-20
**Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
Paul is talking about HIS mission to the Gentiles. He includes his Call to the Apostolic office and how HE has insight through revelation AS well as the other Apostles.
What I am saying is they all have the power of the Holy Spirit through divine revelation from the laying of the hands and receiving the Holy Spirit through what we call Holy Orders.
No one is denying that all of the APostles, Bishops etc ALL have the power of the Holy Spirit to insight of the word of God.
But you still refused to show me where ALL of the Apostles have the keys to the Kindom. God did indeed give them all the Power of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. he breathed on ALL of them. I do not deny the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I asked you numerous time WHERE did they ALL receive the KEYS TO THE KINGDOM. You have not produced this infor for me.
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rinnie
Guest
I have told you numerous times You are PETER and to you I GIVE the Keys to the Kingdom. Are all the Apostles Peter?And where is the “Primacy”?
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Mickey
Guest
It is not a Gospel reading…it is St Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians…and it says exactly what it means.
I provided Scriptural and patristic sources. Go back and read the thread.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Matthew 16:13-20 is called “Peter the Rock” Do you read the Catholic Bible? Read the footnotes. Do you also disgree with them? What Bible do “YOU” read?
To the tradition of St Peters confession at Caesarea Philippi{Mk 8-27-30}, Matthew adds the doctrine of the Dininity of Christ, together with Jesus prophecy that He will successfully build a New Israel, i.e. the Church upon St Peter. Considering the unresolved dispute among the Twelve as to whom was the greatest {Mt 20 20-24} it is probable that this prophecy as a whole was made by the risen Christ.{Jn 21, 15ff}
The importance is seen from the fact that Matthew conserves it Three Decades after St Peter’s martyrdom, when his leadership of the Jewish community is already a thing of the past.
In Matthew the building of the New Israel on “St Peter” pertains to Jesus own role in the mystery of the reign of God that has appeared in History. Jesus cannot begin to build His church upon St Peter until after His death and resurrection. For Matthew, Jesus building of the new people of God upon Peter is a continuing reality for the Christian community in time. “Catholic Bible”.
I quoted the Rev Hitchcock Bible for its value as a learning tool. Not a new concept Dr Hahn presents as I stated its 1869 and already understood.
There is “no mistake” in Matthew or the ECFs, just your interpretation and selective reading of both.
“Upon this Rock {YOU, PETER} I will build My church {CHRIST}”… I’m sorry Christ did NOT say St Paul or St John or any other of the Apostles. Binding and Losing the Word of God has “ZIP” to do with this.
To the tradition of St Peters confession at Caesarea Philippi{Mk 8-27-30}, Matthew adds the doctrine of the Dininity of Christ, together with Jesus prophecy that He will successfully build a New Israel, i.e. the Church upon St Peter. Considering the unresolved dispute among the Twelve as to whom was the greatest {Mt 20 20-24} it is probable that this prophecy as a whole was made by the risen Christ.{Jn 21, 15ff}
The importance is seen from the fact that Matthew conserves it Three Decades after St Peter’s martyrdom, when his leadership of the Jewish community is already a thing of the past.
In Matthew the building of the New Israel on “St Peter” pertains to Jesus own role in the mystery of the reign of God that has appeared in History. Jesus cannot begin to build His church upon St Peter until after His death and resurrection. For Matthew, Jesus building of the new people of God upon Peter is a continuing reality for the Christian community in time. “Catholic Bible”.
I quoted the Rev Hitchcock Bible for its value as a learning tool. Not a new concept Dr Hahn presents as I stated its 1869 and already understood.
There is “no mistake” in Matthew or the ECFs, just your interpretation and selective reading of both.
“Upon this Rock {YOU, PETER} I will build My church {CHRIST}”… I’m sorry Christ did NOT say St Paul or St John or any other of the Apostles. Binding and Losing the Word of God has “ZIP” to do with this.
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Mickey
Guest
If we say to ourselves ’ You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ then we too become Peter, for whoever is united to Christ becomes Peter.
Origen
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Mickey
Guest
The Orthodox New Testament - Vol. 1: The Holy Gospels
and
The Orthodox New Testament - Vol. 2: Acts, Epistles, and Revelations
…with patristic commentary.
I believe the Orthodox interpretation is the correct one. I believe you are doing the selective reading. I do not see **your **interpretation in the reading of the Scriptures…nor in the patristic interpretation.
On the contrary…it is a very important part.
…and the word is “loosing”…not “losing.”
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rinnie
Guest
Mickey Jesus says upon this rock I will build MY Church. Christ said HIS Church, So if he is building us HIS Church its going to under HIS control do you not agree?Huh?
**Eph 2:19-20
**Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
He says the gates of hell will not prevail aganst the Rock which is Peter and the Popes who are in the line of succession with Peter. Now that his PROMISE to us.
Now back to the keys. Show me ONE place in the bible when the other Apostles are exercising Church authority the keys are EVER mentioned. ONE thats all I ask for.
In Matt the other Apostles get the authority to bind and loose like Peter got, but WHY is there NO mention of the keys??
Also isn’t it funny in the O.T. in the kings cabinet all the ministers can bind and loose but only the Prime Minister who HOLDS THE KEYS can bind what THEY loosed and LOOSE what they Bound?
What about what Martin Luther said. Why are you searching heavenward in search of my keys? Do you not understand Jesus said I GAVE THEM TO PETER. They are the keys OF heaven but are found here on EARTH. Strange thing for Luther to say do you not agree. EVEN HE saw it.
In Matt it is directed to PETER not to a peter like faith.
Why did Peter say lest draw lots and the other Apostles OBEY? Why didn’t they say Are you Crazy? Did they obey Peter or not?
How about when he exercises his authority to the Jewish senate the Sanhedrin. Hes put on trial is he not? But he puts them on trial for crucifying our Lord. They set him free.
I could go on and on, But can you explain these thing’s. Kinda looks like someone who has great authority do you not agree?
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rinnie
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Mickey I can;t find this, Are you speaking of eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ the Father of glory may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation resulting in knowledge of him.
If thats what you mean, where does they say we are equal to Peter? Having knowledge Of God does not give us authority to bind and loose or power of the Holy Spirit to lead the Church.
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rinnie
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I have. I have yet to see where in the word of God either in SS or ST that it is ever stated that ALL of the Apostles have the keys to the kingdom. I did provide Sacred Scripture that States that Peter has them.It is not a Gospel reading…it is St Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians…and it says exactly what it means.
I provided Scriptural and patristic sources. Go back and read the thread.
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Mickey
Guest
It is no coincidence that binding and loosing is mentioned in the Gospel of St Matthew after the keys of the kingdom. And it is very clear that all the apostles received that authority…and hence the keys. You are not able to show any patristic evidence that says ONLY St Peter has the keys. Yet I am able to show sources that the keys were not for St Peter alone.
I am sorry that you cannot accept it.
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Mickey
Guest
It is a quote from the ECF Origen. It is one of many quotes showing that the Fathers of the Church did not have this perception that St Peter alone held keys and all had to submit to his infallible supremacy.
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rinnie
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This is the point that no one wants to address or refuses to. As I stated earlier NO ONE here has ever doubted the authority to bind and loose. Even the Priests can forgive our sin in the name of God,
BUt why can the Pope speak ALONE or with the Bishops in communion with him if they are ALL Equal. Why can’t the Bishops speak ALONE without the Pope?
This is a question that has not been answered. And this is a practice that has been practiced from the beginning of Christ.
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rinnie
Guest
But that’s their Opinion. How can you PROVE to me it is the word of God.
I can show you thousands of Quotes that I do not agree with. But what about the True word of God.
YOU are PETER and to YOU I GIVE the keys to the kingdom. How can anyone read that and say I don’t SEE it. Honestly Mickey can you in your heart SAY I read that as God saying that ALL of the APostles have equal Authority.
You and I have been friends for many years. I am asking your true Opinion of that statement. DO you feel God is saying ONLY Peter has the keys. Not what you want to see, what do you see in black and white. Just asking you to speak from YOUR heart Mickey.
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Mickey
Guest
[Peter] is not the only one among the disciples who is worthy of pasturing the Lord’s sheep. If Christ speaks only to one, it is to emphasize unity. Indeed, so that you may know that it is the Church who has received the keys to the kingdom of heaven, listen to what the Lord has said elsewhere to all the apostles: ’ Receive the Holy Spirit.’ And later, ‘Anyone whose sins you have forgiven, they are forgiven: anyone whose sins you retain, they are retained’ (Jn 20:22-23).
St Augustine**, Sermo 295, 2-8.**
“You claim that the Church was established on the Apostle Peter, but the truth is that it was established on all the apostles, and the power of the Church became manifest in all of them.”
(St Jerome, Adversus Iovinianum, I. See also, In Evangelio S. Matt, lib. VI.)
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Mickey
Guest
We are not sola Scripturists. We get our Scriptural interpretations from the consensus of the Holy Fathers of the Church. The Fathers are part of Sacred Tradition.
My opinion is meaningless. I stay obedient to the interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures as set forth by the Sacred Tradition of the Church. And I have set forth to you, rinnie, what I have gleaned from Tradition as it pertains to the interpretation of this passage. I am sorry that you cannot accept it and I am not going to continue to go around in circles with you.
No.
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rinnie
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Mickey I have this whole time, The scripture reads YOU ARE PETER, TO YOU I give the KEYS to the kingdom. Why does is state YOU ARE PETER, I asked you earlier are you saying Jesus was saying all of the Apostles are Peter? Yes or No?
Please show me scripture that states ALL of the Apostles have the keys to the kingdom. Why can you not produce this. And why do you continue to say that authority to bind and loose means also the keys to the kingdom? SHow me where it states that. This is all I ask.
Why when Jesus gave all of the Apostles the authority to bind an loose there is NO mention of the Keys to the Kingdom?
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rinnie
Guest
BUt you are taking OPINIONS of Holy Fathers of the Church. The Pope can give me his Opinion on this and that all day. But unless he is speaking in the name of GOd I am not bound to it.
This comes from the CCC Quote 881 The Lord made Simon ALONE whom he named rock of his Church. He gave HIM the keys of his Church and instituted HIM shepherd of the whole Flock. The office of binding and loosing which was give to Peter was ALSO assigned to the College of Apostles united to its head. This pastoral office of Peter and the Other Apostles belongs to the Church very foundation and its continued by the biishops UNDER the Primacy of the Pope.
Now what is it about the CCC and the Pope alone having the Keys am I not accepting. This is the CCC not MY opinion. This teaching is quite clear. I understand you reject this but you must accept it is a true teaching and always has been.
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rinnie
Guest
Now see, to begin with, where am I in disagreement with St Augustine, it says all of the Apostles were here to teach us and are in unity with the Holy Spirit. It says the Church received the keys to the kingdom. WE know that, that is why we LIsten to the CHURCH. But Jesus gave the keys to PETER who is to protect the Kingdom HERE on earth. Jesus said to YOU I give the Keys to the Kingdom. Where is the Kingdom? HERE on earth. To YOU means Peter or he would not have made himself clear on this matter. To guard the Church is not the same as to bind and loose. Christ had the keys and passed them down to Peter and Peter has continued to pass them down. This is our History that cannot be denied.
We know that the only Power the Pope has is what is given and exercised through him from Christ and CHRIST ALONE. The Pope never claimed any power on his own, he never said he was perfect or sinless. He only does what he promised to do. Guard the Kingdom here on earth which is the visible Church.
Please go back to the O.T and see where it ties into the N.T.
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Mickey
Guest
Exactly! The Holy Orthodox Church takes her interpretations of the Sacred Scriptures from the Sacred Tradition. Now you are getting it!
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